This episode is a special one—episode 300.
That feels really meaningful to me. I’m grateful you listen, share the podcast, and care enough about your marriage to keep showing up for these conversations. I really do celebrate you and your commitment to building a strong, intimate, passionate marriage.
For this milestone episode, I wanted to do something a little different.
So I turned it into a personal research project around a question I’ve been pondering for a long time:
👉 What’s the difference between having sex… and making love?
In this episode (Part 1), I reached out to trusted experts and mentors to hear their perspective—and what they shared genuinely changed how I think about intimacy in marriage.
You’ll hear from:
- Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife on desire, freedom, and why we lose “aliveness” in long-term relationships
- Dr. Chelom Leavitt on emotional connection as the strongest predictor of sexual satisfaction
- Adam & Karissa King on moving from transactional sex to truly knowing and being known
This isn’t just about sex.
It’s about:
- Meaning
- Connection
- Desire
- And the kind of intimacy that makes a marriage feel alive again
Don’t miss Part 2 (Episode 301), where we continue this conversation with three more voices and perspectives.
Resources and Events:
We invite you to explore our Get Your Marriage On coaching program. Get ready for our men’s and women’s groups starting up again in May!
Guests
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife is the author of a book, That We Might Have Joy, she offers amazing online courses, and has an exciting in-person events coming up this summer.
Dr. Chelom Leavitt is a world-renowned sex researcher and has many helpful resources on her website about mindfulness in sexuality, relationships, teaching kids about sex, and more.
Adam and Karissa King, better known online by the brand Dear Young Married Couple, teach courses, host a podcast, and provide many resources, especially for newly married couples. They are also in the process of releasing a new book.
Disclaimer: The opinions and values expressed by guests on the Get Your Marriage On! podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions and values of the host. Appearance on the podcast does not imply an endorsement of the guest or their products by Get Your Marriage On or its host. Wile we work hard to bring you quality and valuable content, listeners are encouraged to use their own best judgment in applying the information or products discussed on this podcast.
Transcript
This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors or inaccuracies. For the most accurate and complete experience, we recommend listening to the full podcast episode.
#300: What’s the difference between having sex and making love?
Hey friend, will you just indulge me just for a minute and celebrate something really meaningful with me for a second? This episode you’re listening to right now is episode number 300. I can’t believe it. I’m just so happy that you’re a part of this. I also wanna celebrate you, my dear listener, [00:01:00] and your marriage and your commitment to strong relationships.
Dan – May 2025: We need stronger, intimate, and passion relationships now more than ever in any other time in history. My prayer and hope is that this whole podcast inspires you to love better and have the courage to be more intimate and enjoy passionate, fulfilling sexual and emotional connections with your spouse.
I’ve been looking forward to this major milestone of episode number 300 for a long time, and I wanna make this episode really special and make it maybe a little different for my other episodes. So I’ve been pondering for a while how to do that. I’ve also been pondering what’s the difference between just having sex and making love.
I heard a quote once that, although I can’t tell you what the source was, it was an old woman reflecting back on her long and joyful marriage. Uh, she says, we made love every day. Sometimes we had intercourse, and I imagine her saying it with like a Spanish accent or something like that. [00:02:00] I like that idea.
We made love every day sometimes. It was intercourse to me. There’s something significant conveyed in that picture of a couple, making love something full-hearted, fully embodied and love incarnate that I find inspiring for my own marriage. I thought I’d make this a special research project, so I reached out to a few mentors and professionals that I admire and look up to, and I asked them, what’s the difference between having sex and making love?
The responses have been really inspiring and life changing for me, and you get to join me on this journey and hear what they’ve shared with me. I’ve decided to divide this project into two episodes. So right now you’re listening to part one of this project. Today, you’ll get to hear from these people.
First is Dr. Jennifer Finlay Infe. She’s a highly sought after voice in the space of healthy sexuality in marriage. Her latest book that we might have, joy is an excellent read for anyone [00:03:00] seeking to reconcile spirituality and sexuality. The second guest is Dr. Shalom Levitt. She’s a sexuality researcher at Brigham Young University, a mother of eight children and a friend of mine.
And the third is Adam and Carissa King. They’re a marriage therapist duo and, you’ll find them online at Dear Young Married Couple. But there’s more. Don’t forget to tune into the following episode, which will be number 3 0 1. To hear part two where we answer, the same question with three different mentors and experts with very different and still inspiring answers.
Now before we do a deep dive on what it means to make love, I wanna tell you that our next cohort for men’s and women’s small group coaching is starting on May 12th. If you haven’t heard of this, this is a 14 week small group course, limited to just six to 10 men, or six to 10 women. This small group is led by a mentor and professional [00:04:00] coach on my team.
This is a staff member who not only talks the talk, but she walks the walk too and it follows my Get Your Marriage On Course. This group is ideal for husbands or wives who are in an otherwise happy marriage, but wish things were better when it came to sex and intimacy. And it’s not just a, a solid focus on sex too.
It’s about communication, learning how to relate together emotionally better, and how to really find yourself and feel seen so you can create that marriage, like what we talk about on this podcast often, where there’s that room for two people to fully take up your space and build a strong relationship together.
Now because this is limited to a small number of men and women, you need to act fast. Registration is open. You’ll find the details at Get Your Marriage on.com. You click on events and scroll down to the May section and you’ll find the details from there to the men’s and women’s groups. So act Quick, ready?[00:05:00]
Now let’s listen to Dr. Jennifer Finlay and Fife and my conversation with her about this topic.
So, Jennifer, what are your thoughts when you hear the question, what’s the difference between having sex and making love?
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): Well, I don’t know that I wanna, like, I, I don’t wanna get rigid about the wording
Dan Purcell: Uhhuh
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): I think that I, I think I know what you’re pointing
Dan Purcell: Uhhuh?
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): I would never be like, oh, you, it’s one or the other per se, because, there’s a rawness and a physicality to sex that I think is legitimate and that we don’t have to, sometimes we try to sanitize it through the language of making love.
Dan Purcell: Yeah.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): But I think maybe what you’re pointing at is, you know, soulful sex versus sex that lacks some, aliveness and a sense of connection. And I think that a lot of couples feel like maybe they have sex, but they don’t have this sense of. attraction and desire and aliveness that they felt often in the beginning of the [00:06:00] relationship
Dan Purcell: huh.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): and that they wish sex were giving them.
And so a lot of the people that come to me sometimes come in in the frame of why aren’t having much sex or I wish we were having more
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): but in fact the bigger thing that’s lacking is that sense of, Attraction, desire, passion,
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): of you’re my person
Dan Purcell: Yeah.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): people wanna feel.
Dan Purcell: Does it mean something’s gone wrong? If early in the relationship you tend to have a lot of that aliveness? But now, fast forward 10, 20 years, it’s not quite there anymore.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): I wouldn’t say anything’s gone wrong. I, in fact, I might say it is pretty normal from a statistical point of view. That people kind of lose that thread. They lose the aliveness much because of what we do in marriage and in life. We kill the joy in it through our pursuit of safety reassurance and, certainty.
[00:07:00] So a lot of what inspires the erotic in the beginning easy to wanna try to control or contain. And so we naturally kill. so I wouldn’t say anything’s gone wrong, but I would say that even though it’s understandable, it does kill a lot of the joy that we anticipate we’re gonna experience in marriage.
Dan Purcell: Can you give me a specific example? Like what’s one thing that we tend to kill that would’ve otherwise given a lot of interest in life?
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): well, I mean, one thing that just comes to mind right away is that, that we all. Living in the 20th century enjoy amazing
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm. Uh huh.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): compared to a couple hundred years
Dan Purcell: Yeah.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): right? So just if you, just even kings didn’t have as much as the common person has
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): and yet we’re pretty miserable. And so that is, humans have the, the ability to habituate and become entitled around good things in their lives, including their [00:08:00] spouse. when you fall in love, you tend to be like, is hers so amazing? I can’t believe I met them. It’s so magical and wonderful, and I’m so grateful they’re here. you have all that energy that drives passion.
Dan Purcell: Full of wonder.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): you’re, yeah, the wonder in it, the amazement of who you are, and I see you as this person that’s different from me. then we quickly go into the entitled frame of like, you know. Well, you’re supposed to do that. You’re my husband, or Yeah, you’re supposed to do that. You’re my wife or what have you done for me lately? desire to have what we want, to not actually make room for a person that’s different than us often kicks
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): and we move into an energy of control and predictability that blocks our awareness of the wonder and the awe of the other
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): And it’s understandable that we want what we want. I mean, that is to say when you’re living a single life, it’s easy to go to the [00:09:00] grocery store when you want, go to bed when you want, you’re lonely.
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): Then you fall in love and your brain is flooded with dopamine, and so you’re like, oh my gosh, it’s gonna be amazing because we like all the same things and we can talk so easily. But then when you actually move in together and start building a life, you know, you’re like, well, we are going to bed at the wrong time, or. know why you go to the grocery store too often or whatever, you know, you start coming up with these things. I want you to do the things that the way I want you
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): And of course, they are often our partners putting pressure in the, in another way. And so then we start feeling like, I’m not gonna get what I want with you, so I need to pressure you or feel frustrated with you or resent you or. Hide who I am from you. And so those inclinations are very, very normal human behaviors. But the more we do those things, the more we kill the aliveness of the marriage. Because what makes us feel alive in marriage is this idea that I can be myself [00:10:00] and I can also be with you and known by
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): don’t have to pretend or manage or shut down parts of myself to make this work, in order to create that reality, you know, again, when you’re falling in love, you think you have it because. You don’t know each other very well yet, and dopamine is helping tremendously. But when you start to really get to know each other and you’re building a life together, well then to create that kind of reality, you have to grow into somebody that can be compatible, that’s capable of it, somebody that can make room for another without betraying what is true and honest in you.
And that’s developmental work.
Dan Purcell: Uh,
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): I think we love the idea that if you find the right person, it’s easy and you know, you just, you don’t have any trouble. But I just don’t think that’s true. Marriage is something you create your growth and through your courage and through your honesty and through your willingness to give.
Dan Purcell: Gotcha. Yeah. Yeah. I love that developmental model. It’s like, nothing’s gone [00:11:00] wrong. It’s just means you haven’t, this is just pushing on the points in you that are inviting you to grow and develop to your next level, whatever that might be. Right. And if we accept that invitation, that’s the pathway that could lead to more passion, more aliveness in that
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): right. Exactly. Nothing prepares you. For being a parent as much as being a
Dan Purcell: uhhuh.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): or prepares you for marriage as much as getting married, because then you’re in the thick of it and you have to figure out what do I need to grow to be capable of this?
Dan Purcell: Yeah, that’s right. And , reading all the parenting books or marriage books before being a parent or a marriage. Might help you a little bit, but no,
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): yeah.
Dan Purcell: in the,
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): Right.
Dan Purcell: it’s like bicycle, right? If I had gave you a book on how to ride a bike and you’ve never run a bike before, very different experience than actually getting on a bike.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): Yeah, for sure.
Dan Purcell: what about this pattern than in marriages where sex becomes something where it feels like you’re given sex a job that you use it to like prove something about who you [00:12:00] are. like it’s tied to your worth. How does that make it less love making, so to speak, less of this aliveness and more, uh, transactional.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): Yeah. I write about this in my book a lot, which is that, when we’re earlier in our development, and most of us get married earlier in our development, we’re very concerned with the self. You know, it’s like, yes, I love you, but kind of like, I love you because of how you make me feel about
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): love what I imagine marrying you is going to offer to my life. And it’s not like we’re sitting around being greedy and so on, but we’re often have that motivation happening more than we
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): And then when you actually marry the person, the thing you usually, that you promised at the altar is, I’m gonna love this person even when they’re driving me crazy.
So usually what we focus on is, you’re supposed to love me, not that I’m gonna love you. and so that is to say that in sex, which is very central to our sense of self as I write about, and, it therefore feels very exposing. Sex does. Like if the [00:13:00] person that you share a bed with. Doesn’t like you, doesn’t wanna be close to you, doesn’t like having sex with you, that hurts
Dan Purcell: Yeah.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): lot. Right? And or am I prepared to really let a person into my body, let, let them really, really know me in this way? I, I might wanna be married to, but I don’t know if I wanna be that connected. So that is to say that these questions around our sense of self and how much we wanna let somebody in are very alive in
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): When we’re younger in our development, the ego, our self-protection, our desire to get reinforcement is driving us
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): And so that can be then expressed in the form of being low desire for sex or low desire for intimacy,
Dan Purcell: Uh huh.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): letting somebody in,
Dan Purcell: Great.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): or it can be high desire like, I want you to tell me I’m enough.
I want you to want me. So that. Tends to mean that sex ends up taking on a lot of [00:14:00] demand of what it’s going to prove about us or what it’s going to manage in the relationship. And the more sex gets weighed down the needs of the ego, the more that it tends to kill its power, its erotic energy. The more free we feel to be ourselves, the freer we feel to desire without feeling that we’re gonna be judged or punished or whatever, then the better sex tends to be, the more alive it feels. And so, I have a course called Sex Worth Wanting. you know, my goal with couples is not, you know, just about helping them have more sex. It’s helping them create the energy that they’re really longing for.
Dan Purcell: Hmm.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): And to understand what in their marriage is interfering with creating it, right? How are they behaving around the issues of sex or even around how open-hearted, and honest the [00:15:00] marriage is, that’s killing the passion that brought them together in the first place.
Dan Purcell: I like that. I’ve shared this on my podcast in the past, but years ago in my own marriage, I would keep track in true nerd fashion, how often we’re having sex, and I would track orgasms and things like frequency and whatever. I remember looking at the chart once, it’s like, wow. for every 10 times we’re together, my wife has an orgasm.
Uh, I must be a really poor lover. I, I made that reflect on me like she’s not having, like, we’re, we’re not even close.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): me.
Dan Purcell: Yeah. It’s about me. And then knowing that our sexual encounters were, I was very hyper-focused on her, and having a certain outcome. If the littlest thing threw us off, I would be put out because it meant, I was a poor lover.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): Mm-hmm.
Dan Purcell: then things got worse and worse and worse. And we,
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): Yeah.
Dan Purcell: [00:16:00] we didn’t want to engage sexually at all because now there’s all this pressure that
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): Right,
Dan Purcell: to be a certain way. Right. And
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): It’s gonna measure
Dan Purcell: I,
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): and also measure her
Dan Purcell: yeah. Right. And my poor wife, she’s like, if I don’t get an orgasm. He’s gonna feel lousy and I, I don’t want him to feel that way.
And under that pressure, your body’s not gonna wanna respond.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): Yeah. Right,
Dan Purcell: So, so counterproductive and,
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): right. And there’s nothing free about it at all. Right? It’s all about
Dan Purcell: right,
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): measurement and success or failure. And he is gonna feel bad about himself, but he is also gonna feel bad about me.
Dan Purcell: right.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): I’m not producing what will make you feel good. And yes, whenever sex is given that kind of a job, it kills the freedom in it. And you know, it’s paradoxical I think because and desire. Thrive in freedom. marriage is not anything about freedom. Right? You know, like we’re like, you [00:17:00] know, we’re kind of containing and, and so on. And so there is a paradox inherent to it, it’s also about how we relate to marriage.
Do we see it as a chosen container or do we relate to it as a prison? and if it’s like, well I have to do this ’cause this is my husband’s, you know, this is what he needs, or he’s not gonna be
Dan Purcell: Or whatever. Right.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): Yeah. All that garbage. And it just, it just can make it so psychologically we’re in a mind. It’s not that our body’s broken, although a lot of people will think that’s the problem. It’s in fact, we’re in a mind that’s killing aeros
Dan Purcell: Hmm.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): without realizing it. Mm-hmm.
Dan Purcell: You’ve told me before how, just understanding our, our self-worth or connecting to our sense of, value within ourselves is great erotic fuel. It, it helps us break out of these patterns that we’ve talked about. Can you talk on that a little bit more?
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): Yeah, I mean. I guess what I would say is the more we’re in an anxious mind, and I mean, especially in a long-term marriage, because [00:18:00] if you’re just having an affair or you’re, you know, basically it’s, it’s a different, calculus because there’s a different kind of validation happening early on in a relationship. with somebody that really knows you, the more that you are measuring yourself through them, the less free you feel in the marriage, the less free you feel to be yourself. The pressure then is to be more able to self-reference. a lot of people think that means being selfish, but that is that you can anchor more into your own mind, into your own thoughts, your own beliefs, your own feelings, and you can settle yourself. the most powerful person in a room is the calmest person. The person that’s most able to be anchored into themselves. They don’t have to prove themselves. They’re not trying to get attention. They’re not reactive. settled, right? And, so in a marriage, the more that you’re in reaction to each other, the more you feel controlled by each other because in a sense, you are being controlled by the other person. This is also true in sex because the more we [00:19:00] can be at peace in our own skin, the freer we are to desire another person and to be known by them.
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): And so a lot of time when we’re coming in with that, I’m gonna measure myself around this encounter. We’re in an anxious body and mind, and the more that we’re settled down together and can bring something of ourselves into the encounter, the more alive meaningful that it is, right?
You. You can’t love of this anxious pursuit of approval has to come out of some desire. And gratitude for the presence of the other. Some ability to love and value who they are, and that has to come from our center,
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): and that’s what we all long for in good sex, is to feel known and loved and accepted as we
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): right?
That I don’t have to prove anything. I can be here with you be valued by you. That’s what we most want. And that takes character development both to be able to [00:20:00] receive that kind of care and to be able to give that kind of
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm. I like that. That’s good. Really comes down to that learning how to love and love. Well,
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): Yeah, exactly.
Dan Purcell: if I can jump back to the very, very beginning of our conversation you said. there is a physicality side of sex that we tend to sanitize too much. Can we go on that for a second? Like let’s talk about why it’s okay to see the carnal side or the physical side.
of really good sexuality.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): so in in the last chapter, well, I have a how to talk to your kids about sex chapter, chapter 10, but chapter nine of my book, I write about basically value of the body, even for spiritual meaning for. Psychological communion because I think often in a Christian tradition, we tend to see the body evil. The thing that pulls the spirit down, and I think a much better [00:21:00] understanding is that is the Socrates idea that the body is an instrument of perception. The way we knew we were loved when we were a baby was entirely through the language of the body.
Dan Purcell: Yeah.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): how you knew you were safe, that you were accepted, that you were cherished, that you gave your parent delight in just being alive. It was all through the, the physical. There was no, you know, verbal in the beginning. And so that’s very much the body has this ability to express meaning. In a way that our linear and logical minds are always secondary to. and so, you know, by the way your spouse touches you, what their goal is.
Dan Purcell: Uh
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): they just trying to get you to wanna have sex or are they saying, glad you’re here. I like.
Dan Purcell: mm-hmm.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): You mean something to me? and so, so much meaning is communicated through the body and especially through sex.
And that’s why a lot of couples don’t like having sex is because the meaning that’s being communicated is anti erotic. It’s [00:22:00] pressuring, it’s demanding, it’s belittling. And so the physicality is not the problem. In fact, it’s the deep benefit of sex because. When you really cherish another soul through sex, sex is a powerfully beautiful meaning and very anchoring to a marriage.
Very, very good for a marriage. and I think we’re afraid, well, it must be always, I love you. I let you know, it has to be cleaned up. And I think sometimes just the freedom to express our eroticism, be free, to be fully sexual beings and to have the safety of. able to accept this part of our humanity, to accept it in the other, to have a safe space for this part of being human. mean, that’s sacred in my mind.
Dan Purcell: Yeah.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): And so I think sometimes we try to sanitize out of our fear, but not, but not the people that really know how truly sacred it can be to be fully free with another person.
Dan Purcell: [00:23:00] I think some people fear like they’re gonna be doing something wrong if they let go. ’cause on the other side of that feels like, I can’t think of a great word, animalistic a little more raw. And they
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): Mm-hmm.
Dan Purcell: maybe that’s wrong. ’cause they don’t express that in other areas publicly in, in their life.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): Yeah.
Dan Purcell: And, so therefore they always, like, in the act of sex, they, they get close to that point, but they hold back. They’re, they’re timid and don’t give in.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): And I think. I think that there is a sense in it because a lot of our religious traditions and religious education has to do with inhibiting our impulses. Just getting socialized is learning to inhibit impulses. I don’t mean a kind of indulgent, loss, losing track of your spouse, you know, I don’t mean just losing control, so either.
Dan Purcell: Yes.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife: Um, so it’s not a kind of, [00:24:00] indulgent escape from life.
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): And so there’s a paradox in it because the more we learn how to have breaks the freer we are, sometimes the pursuit of breaks is to crush, know, is, is to crush our sexuality and our eroticism, and that’s very counterproductive. so we need to learn to have brakes, but then we’re able to drive that car where we want to and to, and drive fast in it, even if we want,
Dan Purcell: Uh,
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): because we trust our ability to not do something destructive.
Dan Purcell: ah, that
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): in the book I write about learning how to ski. The first thing you’re learning is how to, you know, stop.
Dan Purcell: Uh,
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): Because you don’t wanna get on that slope and just crash into a tree.
Dan Purcell: I was just had to play about my kids skiing and teaching them how to ski and that’s once they know they can stop, then they feel like they can go fast.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): then
Dan Purcell: Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife (2): some freedom with it. And freedom to experience the pleasure and the glee even of going down that mountain. Because you’re not just out of control. You’re able to make [00:25:00] choices, but then you’re able to experience pleasure in a much deeper, richer way because it’s not an indulgent, I’m just taking care of myself here. It’s that I can express my full sexuality. ’cause I trust myself and I trust you and I can bring it to you fully, but I can even love you through it, Love and be loved through it. And so. Sometimes we make it that, oh, any, any suppression is shame or any kind of real pleasure is indulgent, and I think both of those ideas are wrong.
Dan Purcell: Very good. Thank you.
The next expert I interviewed is Dr. Shalom Levitt. She’s a friend of mine, a mentor of mine, and, she’s a sex researcher. her published works have been cited over thousands of times, and so she really knows a lot about, how a lot of people relate to sexuality. So her insights were really meaningful to me.
You’ll get to hear what she says next.
Dan Purcell (2): so Shalom, when you hear this, question, what comes to mind? What’s [00:26:00] the difference between having sex and making love?
Dr. Chelom Leavitt: You know, the first thing that kind of popped in my head was, um, I was teaching a bunch of therapists last fall and they like. Over and over and over just kept saying, we are being flooded with middle-aged couples who are coming in. And the woman most likely is just saying, I’m done. I mean, we’re gonna stay married, but I’m not having sex anymore.
Dan Purcell (2): Mm-hmm.
Dr. Chelom Leavitt: And I think sometimes what happens is we get into a negative pattern where we’re just having sex, right? Which is really just going through the mechanics of. Sharing our bodies, but not sharing much more than just bodies. Whereas making love is really seeing that person and being as invested in their experience in the [00:27:00] whole picture.
Not just the sex, but being as invested in what they experience As what As, as much as you’re invested in your own experience, right?
Dan Purcell (2): Mm-hmm.
Dr. Chelom Leavitt: Are you feeling connection? Are you feeling my love for you? are we able to share all the little dark corners of our mind and our past and and our present? And really let my partner see all of that and be accepted right with love?
Maybe even some pushback sometimes, but just. Accepted as you are this complex mystery that I love, and I’m curious to keep learning more about you and expressing that in this physical way where we really get to literally come together. Right? [00:28:00] And a lot of people, when that’s the experience, they report it as being, you know, transcendent.
It, it takes you to a higher level that mirror sex or mirror. Physical arousal can be pleasurable, but it, it’s almost like, Dr. Sue Johnson describes some people who are connecting physically, but it’s almost like they’re not really there. It’s like they’re having this. Sensation based experience, but there’s nothing emotional and just deeply connecting That’s occurring in the experience.
Dan Purcell (2): really awake in it.
Dr. Chelom Leavitt: Yeah. Right.
Dan Purcell (2): right. Uhhuh,
Dr. Chelom Leavitt: Yeah. And that’s what we’re really hoping happens when we have sex, is that it is this creation of love, right, of this deeper purpose.
Dan Purcell (2): Mm-hmm. [00:29:00] So it makes sense then like the couples you talked about, where oftentimes it’s the wife that says, I’m, I’m kind of done.
Dr. Chelom Leavitt: Yeah.
Dan Purcell (2): There could be a million reasons why that is. But, in light of what you talked about, what comes to mind is the type of sex they’re having isn’t transcendent.
It’s not inviting. It’s not.
Dr. Chelom Leavitt: Right. It’s not emotional.
Dan Purcell (2): right?
Dr. Chelom Leavitt: Yeah. I mean, I, I think especially women, I mean men too
Dan Purcell (2): Mm-hmm.
Dr. Chelom Leavitt: from research, but especially women report that the emotional part of sex is so critical. In fact, when I do studies, and I have emotional connection as one of the variables, it will use up the most variability.
Sexual satisfaction and relationship satisfaction. That seems to be the biggest indicator of high quality sex, high quality relationship. Are we emotionally connected? [00:30:00] I’ve done a study where women would report having orgasm pretty consistently,
Dan Purcell (2): Mm-hmm.
Dr. Chelom Leavitt: they reported really low satisfaction.
Dan Purcell (2): Gotcha.
Dr. Chelom Leavitt: we can get really hung up on the physical part of it and miss the important part of it, which is connecting.
Dan Purcell (2): Yeah. Yeah. that’s huge.
Dr. Chelom Leavitt: Huge.
Dan Purcell (2): talking about outside of the bedroom, inside the bedroom,
Dr. Chelom Leavitt: Yeah. Both.
Dan Purcell (2): in between, all of
Dr. Chelom Leavitt: Yep.
Dan Purcell (2): It’s not a to-do list. It’s this ongoing investment. Another person is what I’m from that.
Dr. Chelom Leavitt: And, and it can’t be faked, right? It’s not like we can look at it and say, well, if I have an emotional conversation with her, then I’m gonna get sex. Right? It’s not transactional. It’s because we truthfully like just want to be with this person. We’re we’re curious about them. It’s like, you are a part of me and so that matters what you experience truthfully.[00:31:00]
Is important to me.
Dan Purcell (2): Is there something you observed either in your own life or the couples that you research and study habits, that help form stronger emotional connection between a husband and a wife?
Dr. Chelom Leavitt: Yeah. What is surprising maybe for some people is that it’s the little things. It’s like every day. Connecting with that person, not letting a day go by. And in fact, if a day does go by saying, oh, I am feeling like a little distance from you because we didn’t have five minutes to connect yesterday, let’s not let that happen again.
Dan Purcell (2): Mm-hmm.
Dr. Chelom Leavitt: you, you matter to me. Your presence. Is a gift to me. And you know, a mindfulness, guru that I kind of love, has said, the greatest gift you can give your partner is your presence. Like, just really be there with them
Dan Purcell (2): mm-hmm.
Dr. Chelom Leavitt: five minutes. It doesn’t [00:32:00] have to be a long thing, but these little moments of connection.
Are the foundation of a high quality relationship. And, it’s so easy to ignore and just get caught up in jobs and kids and callings and, you know, all of those things and kind of forget this person who you are creating a marriage with.
Dan Purcell (2): Hmm.
Dr. Chelom Leavitt: I gave this example to my class early in my marriage. I was just trying to really focus on. like admiring my husband. And so I wrote down a whole list of things that I really admired about him, and I cut them into little strips and folded them up and I would put them in different places that he would come upon them, like in his shoe or in his wallet or his glove compartment.
And, whenever he came upon one, I would get a call and he would say. Thank you so [00:33:00] much. You know, and so it kind of created this two-way connection for us to just say there are small things that maybe we overlook sometimes, but it matters. I, yeah.
Dan Purcell (2): that’s great. I love that idea. That’s, really sweet.
Dr. Chelom Leavitt: Yeah. and I think little things like that. Create a culture in your relationship of just mattering to each other.
Dan Purcell (2): I like you described that as a culture in your relationship that’s formed through like maybe a little rituals that you do too,
Dr. Chelom Leavitt: Yeah. Yes.
Dan Purcell (2): Couples that, I don’t know, they brushed their teeth together every night they were gonna
Dr. Chelom Leavitt: Yeah.
Dan Purcell (2): Or whatever it might be. Something small, might be silly to others, but like, we have a little ritual or we pray together
Dr. Chelom Leavitt: Yeah.
Dan Purcell (2): we take time to talk that
Dr. Chelom Leavitt: Yes.
Dan Purcell (2): make, make it an effort. That’s what I’m hearing is
Dr. Chelom Leavitt: Exactly. you can also do big things and those are fun too. And I think those are kind of necessary every so often. Like just even to have something to look [00:34:00] forward to, like what’s our next big thing, that we’re gonna really have time together, whether it’s a date or whether it’s a weekend away, you know?
Dan Purcell (2): or a project that you’re gonna do.
Dr. Chelom Leavitt: Yeah. Yeah. But make the effort to say.
You’re worth making the effort for.
Dan Purcell (2): And when they’re on the date to be present with each other.
Dr. Chelom Leavitt: Yeah.
Dan Purcell (2): Yeah.
Dr. Chelom Leavitt: I mean, I, I don’t know how you are, but that’s hard for me.
Sometimes You have to like set time aside and say, yeah, we’ll come back to that. It is important in our life, but this time is important too.
Dan Purcell (2): That’s so good.
Dr. Chelom Leavitt: I, I really just love emphasizing the emotional side of sex
Dan Purcell (2): Yeah,
Dr. Chelom Leavitt: because we sometimes, in our culture, in our larger culture.
Dan Purcell (2): it’s underrated
Dr. Chelom Leavitt: There’s always, you know, oh, try these positions to ramp up your sex life. And in reality, the sexiest thing you can do with your [00:35:00] partner is to like reveal yourself to say. Here’s a part of me you don’t know about, and I wanna share it with you. I’m gonna trust you with this wound part of myself or this afraid part of myself, or this dreaming part of myself, whatever it is, I’m gonna trust you with that.
because. I love you and I wanna grow closer, and I wanna be vulnerable, and I want you to be vulnerable. Right? That’s pretty sexy.
Dan Purcell (2): yeah.
Dr. Chelom Leavitt: It reminds me of something that happened just a couple weeks ago between me and my husband. we were having a little disagreement about something I had said, and he took it in a way I didn’t intend. And we were both kind of like, just button heads a little bit.
And, we were going to a play. And so I was just gonna kind of brush it under the carpet and enjoy this play and, He came back from getting the tickets and [00:36:00] he just kind of held me by my arms, my shoulders, and he said, I just want you to know that. I love you and I love being around you, and you’re one of my favorite people.
And whatever the disagreement was about, it just kind of like melted because he took it to a higher level where he revealed, you know, this tender emotion he had about himself. And I felt so close to him,
Dan Purcell (2): Mm-hmm.
Dr. Chelom Leavitt: even though, you know, we didn’t necessarily resolve the, the conflict. Um. But he took it to a higher level and reminded us of why we’re working on a marriage,
Dan Purcell (2): Mm-hmm.
Dr. Chelom Leavitt: that was pretty darn sexy.
Dan Purcell (2): Oh, I like that. As you say that. I, just think of Jesus’s mission was to bring people to a higher level, all of us, to a higher level
Dr. Chelom Leavitt: Yeah.
Dan Purcell (2): And ultimately it’s not the. [00:37:00] of to dos and don’ts.
Dr. Chelom Leavitt: Right.
Dan Purcell (2): a matter of the heart that we’re bringing kind of in that spiritual sense, right?
Like
Dr. Chelom Leavitt: Yeah,
Dan Purcell (2): teaching. I think marriage requires us, it’s a calling to a higher level
Dr. Chelom Leavitt: Yeah.
Dan Purcell (2): to see the higher self in each other.
Kinda like what your husband did in
Dr. Chelom Leavitt: Yes, exactly. I mean, learning to love people. Is difficult. It is a skill that takes some real work. It takes some real like gut checks for myself and it takes, like you’re saying, it takes some real vulnerability with your partner. And I’m sure that was really vulnerable for David to say that to me in this moment of contention.
but he did, and it completely changed the dynamic and he was showing how to love at a higher level.
Dan Purcell (2): Mm-hmm.
That’s really good.
Adam and Karissa
Dan Purcell: The last couple you’ll hear from today is Adam and Karissa King. I reached out to them [00:38:00] because they work primarily with newlyweds or those in the first few years of their marriages and where having sex is kind of a newer thing and learning how to make love is kind of the transition point for them.
So I was really interested in their perspective. You’ll get to hear it too.
So Adam and Karissa, what would you say is the difference between having sex and making love?
Adam & Karissa King: It is all about meaning.
Dan Purcell (3): Okay.
Adam & Karissa King: that you make in the sex.
Dan Purcell (3): All right.
Adam & Karissa King: if people show up to be. Extremely present not objectify the other person or their body, but come to experience, the subjective nature of that person. I, think that’s when you can start having the opportunity start making love with the other person.
Hmm.
Dan Purcell (3): Hmm.
Adam & Karissa King: On that note of, of objectivity versus subjectivity, like treating the other person like an object. If it’s only sex and it’s not making love, [00:39:00] saying, I want something from you.
Dan Purcell (3): Okay.
Adam & Karissa King: night stands all the time. They
Dan Purcell (3): Uhhuh,
Adam & Karissa King: something from the other person.
Dan Purcell (3): uh.
Adam & Karissa King: their body versus making love.
It can include the sexual act, but it’s saying, I’m curious about you.
Dan Purcell (3): Mm.
Adam & Karissa King: to bless you.
Dan Purcell (3): Mm-hmm.
Adam & Karissa King: want to know you. And so making love has to do with being known and knowing the other person. Hmm.
Dan Purcell (3): I like that. Gotcha. So what steps do people take, or what counsel do you give people to make it more about knowing another person?
Adam & Karissa King: Yeah, it’s so you have to really engage outside the bedroom. I mean, you don’t just automatically have a 10:30 PM alarm that goes off and says, okay, it’s time. Like you have to actually have engagement and presence and curiosity and warmth the day. Even if you’re not physically together. You could be. You know, at work and school [00:40:00] and ministry and all sorts of things. But if you’re connected in the morning via text that reuniting when you get home and see each other, if all of that feels like, man, I’m pursuing you, you’re gonna have a much better chance at making love when you go to have the sexual act later that night. Yeah, I’d have to. Just echo what she’s saying. I, I think when people are listening to podcasts around sex, a lot of times they’re thinking about the bedroom, but, People who work with a lot of couples around this, we know that sex extends far beyond the bed.
Dan Purcell (3): Mm.
Adam & Karissa King: We can’t help but look at, you know, what does the relationship look like.
Dan Purcell (3): Mm-hmm.
Adam & Karissa King: both people feel like the other person?
is for them?
Dan Purcell (3): Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Adam & Karissa King: they in it for themselves to get what they like? Are they being selfish? You know? Mm-hmm. If I’m just waiting [00:41:00] for this other person to serve me well. Sex is not, is not gonna be great, but if both people are looking to serve the other person in the best way they can and they’re curious and they’re intentional, it’s putting yourself, Toward the other person. When I look at, definition of love in the Bible, one Corinthians 13, it says, love is gentle. Love is kind, love is not envy. It does not boast. It’s not self-seeking. It’s like all those things. I think though, when you have that sort of attitude within the marriage Mm-hmm.
Within the normal life. When it’s looking at the other person as a person they love and, and they know that, man, this person is for me, then it’s so much easier to have a, a beautiful experience within the bedroom.
Dan Purcell (3): How have you, in your own marriage navigated times when it’s been more of one than the other? Like,
Adam & Karissa King: Mm-hmm.
Dan Purcell (3): if you’re [00:42:00] willing to share, that’s a very personal question, but
Adam & Karissa King: Yeah, no,
Dan Purcell (3): when you are like, okay, here we go. This is very transactional right now. This is not.
Adam & Karissa King: Yeah, we can’t talk about that Dan. No, I’m just joking. No, no, I’m playing. that is, that’s legit. ’cause let’s be honest, as a married couple,
Dan Purcell (3): Uh.
Adam & Karissa King: can get transactional, even though we genuinely love each other and want to know each other well, and want to bless each other and be curious about each other. But that desire to do that doesn’t always result in doing that. Mm-hmm.
Dan Purcell (3): Mm-hmm.
Adam & Karissa King: so we have found ourselves in transactional mode for sure.
Like, like, oh, it’s a check. The boxing, like not me. So, so, yeah, but, so, but it looks different for us, right? Mm-hmm. So, I always want to show up for sex. I don’t want her just to show up for sex. I want her to want sex.
Dan Purcell (3): Mm-hmm.
Adam & Karissa King: But the thing is, I get lazy outside of the bedroom. [00:43:00]
Dan Purcell (3): Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Adam & Karissa King: when I get lazy outside of the bedroom, or we just get super, , focused on all the things, the kids, the activities, church, all the, you know, ministries business. I get lazy. I take my eyes off of, what it is to make her feel loved and pursued and cared for outside the bedroom. Mm-hmm.
Dan Purcell (3): Mm-hmm.
Adam & Karissa King: Then that disempowers her.
Dan Purcell (3): Okay.
Adam & Karissa King: and, and then I get lazy in the bedroom and make it more transactional. It’s Okay, let’s do this thing. Let’s check the box.
Dan Purcell (3): we got it done. Hurry it up. Uhhuh.
Adam & Karissa King: So I think the big shift for me personally, moving from just asking like, oh. Did we have sex yesterday? Okay. If we didn’t, then today’s the day. That’s kind of like that
Dan Purcell (3): Uh.
Adam & Karissa King: in my mind is if you get
Dan Purcell (3): It’s probably not wrong, but there’s a better way to think about it. Probably Uhhuh.
Adam & Karissa King: So rather than that it has to be like, did I make Adam feel pursued today?
Dan Purcell (3): Mm-hmm.
Adam & Karissa King: And so [00:44:00] like, yes, that might involve sex,
but I’m also pursuing him intellectually, as you know. ’cause he’s a thinker and a dreamer and a and a wonderer. And so what are you wondering about? Like if I’m pursuing him intellectually, he’s gonna feel seen. And that’s gonna make for a much better sexual experience. Yeah, and just to, you know, talk about us, like our relationship personally, like that’s how we’ve looked at it over the years. We’ve been together 20 years, we’ve been married for almost 18. So we’ve had a lot of, changes in our bodies, in our, focus schooling, you know, all the, you know, there’s 20 years is a long time, and. What we’ve worked on together is, is really just communicating what we need, and that takes a tremendous amount of courage, at least for myself. I’m a withdrawer I’ll, I’ll just hold it in. or I used to, I should say,
Dan Purcell (3): Mm-hmm.
Adam & Karissa King: but I found that, you know, you waste a long time. [00:45:00] Just by holding your, your desires in and your needs in, and what you’re seeing in you wasted so much time and, and you gain a lot of frustration. So what I’ve started to do is just, tell her what I’m feeling or what I’m seeing, and sometimes it’s off.
Sometimes she’s like, well babe, remember like last two weeks ago we did this and we did this. And they’re like, oh yeah, that’s right. Okay, well I’m
Dan Purcell (3): Hmm.
Adam & Karissa King: I have a short memory, and then sometimes I do have a point. So I don’t have a tool for this, but I just call it calling it out. Mm.
You know what’s in the room, what am I feeling? Hey babe, you know, I would really like us to focus on being present today. You know, it feels like we’ve just been showing up and kind of, and I really appreciate. you’ve met me here and we’ve had sex, but I really want more of an event.
You know, we’ve been doing kind of the fast food lately, and I want, want a steak dinner.
Dan Purcell (3): Uh huh.
Adam & Karissa King: [00:46:00] a, I want a really beautiful served multi-course meal.
Dan Purcell (3): Yes.
Adam & Karissa King: that soon?
Dan Purcell (3): Uh,
Adam & Karissa King: And for me, that was very difficult to voice. Um.
Dan Purcell (3): right. Why is it hard?
Adam & Karissa King: Because it feels like I’m being needy. Mm. Yeah. And like, to me, needy is not good. Needy is weak. Needy is, not whole and not attractive. I’d rather just show up and I expect her to want it, you know, I expect her to do all these things and I kind of want her to want to do those things.
Mm-hmm. Rather than me to have to ask like, what woman wants to ask for a bouquet of flowers?
Dan Purcell (3): Right, right. Uhhuh.
Adam & Karissa King: You know, most women just want the guy to go and do it because they want to do it.
Dan Purcell (3): Mm-hmm.
Adam & Karissa King: And I think a lot of guys feel the same exact way. They don’t want to have to ask for the the wonderful dinner. They
Dan Purcell (3): It should be just freely offered, right? Uhhuh?
Adam & Karissa King: The guys want their wife to want to do
Dan Purcell (3): Mm-hmm.
Adam & Karissa King: I think we hold off. [00:47:00] And desire that without expressing it or without reminding the other person of that desire they have. Mm-hmm.
Dan Purcell (3): At least speaking to my own experience, if I ask for something more gourmet and it’s done the whole time, now I’m asking, are you doing really doing this? ’cause I asked you or are you doing it? ’cause you, you wanna be here for it? So that’s, that’s something I think couples and to really work through.
Adam & Karissa King: Yeah. There’s times where Carissa has totally surprised me. I, I find that in my life, like around like birthdays is not a big deal, but surprise around sex is like a huge deal for me.
Dan Purcell (3): Uh.
Adam & Karissa King: So that’s something that I’m always like, hoping for and I’ve expressed and she’s come through sometimes and it’s like a big deal.
’cause it feels like I didn’t have to ask for that. Mm. Yeah. You know, you wanted that. I feel desired. But when you do voice your desires and kind of highlight the fact that, hey, we’ve been a bit more transactional [00:48:00] lately, it is a good reminder too as a mom and as someone who’s just very busy, to go. This is not all about just what’s needed between us, but also to engage, desire, his desires, and to awaken my own desires that, yeah, I also do want to engage in those fun gourmet meals. Um, and, kind of awaken and remind me about my own desire too is it’s helpful at times.
So I’m pulling out my phone right now and putting it on the calendar. Hey, reminder to,
Dan Purcell (3): Yeah. Yeah, that’s good.
So you have a book coming out, which I think is awesome.
It’s letters to, you know, dear Young Married couples, letters to the young married couple. It’s to help ’em with your fights, the fun, the sex and the soul work. Tell me about the soul work aspect and how that connects to everything we’ve talked about so far.
Adam & Karissa King: Yeah, so the soul work aspect has to do with vision, mission, and spiritual foundation in the [00:49:00] couple. So it’s examining sanctification,
Dan Purcell (3): Mm-hmm.
Adam & Karissa King: well am I doing at becoming more like Christ, and so that I can serve you better. And it’s also looking at, you know, how does the fruit of the spirit show up in my life and in my marriage? But it’s also looking at casting vision together as a couple. What’s the blueprint that the Lord put on our lives as a couple? Think Gottman has shown two through research that. that have a purpose beyond just them, have much stronger marriages, even if their communication is so, so, or some of the other aspects of their marriage are so, so if they have something that connects them beyond the marriage, it becomes a powerful force. Keeping them together, keeping them happy and focused.
So rather than making sex this checklist item, if we are in covenant, we are unified in our vision and our mission. When [00:50:00] we have sex, it’s much more than just an act, but it’s binding, it’s covenantal, renewal and it helps us to really invest in each other’s experience and it fuels the fire for what’s next.
Dan Purcell (3): That’s great.
Dan – May 2025: All right. Thank you for listening to part one. This research project continues in part two, which is episode 3 0 1. What you get to hear from Dr. Alexandra Stockwell, Ali Bullock and Trevor Hanson. Now if you would like professional help and coaching to take your marriage to the next level, you can work with me and my team.
You’ll find these details at Get Your Marriage on.com, and don’t delay. Make your marriage great. Now, don’t put it off a year. Don’t put it off three years. Don’t put it off five years. Make it great today. Again, thank you for listening. Please share this episode with your married friends, and meanwhile, it’s your turn to now go get your marriage on. [00:51:00]
