Shame thrives in secrecy—but healing doesn’t.
In this deeply honest conversation, I sit down with Craig, a former attorney whose secret life of pornography, strip clubs, prostitution, and compulsive sexual behavior nearly destroyed everything he cared about.
After years of trying therapy, recovery groups, and identifying himself as a “sex addict,” Craig reached a breaking point. What happened next completely changed how he viewed healing.
Together, we explore why destructive behaviors often serve as coping strategies, how shame can keep us trapped, and why true healing begins with self-leadership instead of self-hatred.
We discuss:
• Why all behavior is need-seeking behavior
• The hidden role shame plays in compulsive sexual behavior
• Why some experts are moving away from the “sex addiction” label
• How Parts Work helps people understand—not fight—themselves
• The difference between suppressing urges and building real integrity
• Practical hope for anyone feeling stuck in cycles of secrecy
Whether you’re personally struggling, supporting a spouse, or simply trying to understand how lasting change happens, this episode offers a compassionate and thought-provoking perspective on healing.
Resources:
The Mindful Habit System by Criag Perra
Couples Coaching by Dan Purcell and the Get Your Marriage On Team
Disclaimer: The opinions and values expressed by guests on the Get Your Marriage On! podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions and values of the host. Appearance on the podcast does not imply an endorsement of the guest or their products by Get Your Marriage On or its host. While we work hard to bring you quality and valuable content, listeners are encouraged to use their own best judgment in applying the information or products discussed on this podcast.
Guest: Craig Perra
Craig Perra is the founder and CEO of The Mindful Habit® System, a globally recognized coaching framework that helps high-performing men transform destructive habits and internal conflict into discipline, purpose, and power.
A former high-powered attorney and corporate executive, Craig’s own crash—from addiction, burnout, and self-sabotage—led him to develop a science-based process that teaches men to lead all parts of themselves, especially the ones they’ve been at war with.
He’s coached thousands of men across 30+ countries—Olympians, professional athletes, C-suite executives—and his work has been featured on The Steve Harvey Show, The Katie Couric Show, A&E, Lifetime, and the BBC.
Craig works with leaders who look successful on the outside but feel trapped, disconnected, or out of integrity on the inside—helping them become the leader of themselves first.
Transcript
This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors or inaccuracies. For the most accurate and complete experience, we recommend listening to the full podcast episode.
Craig Perra (2): [00:00:00] I found out something that rocked me into my core. Sex addiction is not an evidence-based treatment model. what I realized for me, was that there is a net negative in framing your identity around. Hi, my name is Craig and I am a sex addict.
today’s episode starts in a place that most people would rather not talk about actually. We’re talking about shame, secrecy, and the kind of behavior that can slowly hollow out a marriage from the inside.
Dan – May 2025: My guest, Craig, knows [00:01:00] that world personally. He was a successful attorney, husband, father, and outwardly high-functioning man. But beneath the surface, he was trapped in patterns involving p0rnography, strip clubs, pr0stitution, and deep internal conflict. For years, he tried to white-knuckle it all and tried all the, quote-unquote, “s*x addiction route,” things like therapy, recovery language, and more shame-based accountability.
But after hitting his lowest point, which you’ll hear about, he discovered something that happened to change everything. What if the label “addict” was the thing that was actually keeping him stuck? So in this conversation, my guest, Craig, and I challenge some of the most common assumptions about p0rnography, compulsive s*xual behavior, shame, and healing.
We talk about why all this behavior is need-seeking behavior, why shame can both destroy and guide us, and how parts work can help a man stop fighting himself and start leading [00:02:00] himself
This episode is honest, challenging, hopeful, and deeply practical. Stay with us.
I’m happy to announce that our next couples retreat is coming up soon, and you can get on our waiting list now. The dates are set for April 2027. You’ll find those details on our website. this is for couples that have … You would say, “We have an overall good marriage. Like, we get along really well, but we just wish when it came to s*x and intimacy there was a little more spark, a little more pizzazz, or things were better when it comes to things in that department.”
Find all those details at getyourmarriageon.com/events,
And you wanna get on the waiting list now ’cause those on the wait list get notified first when registration opens
Dan Purcell: Craig, welcome to the Get Your Marriage On Podcast. How are you today?
Craig Perra (2): I am doing phenomenal. So great to be here, Dan.
Dan Purcell: Yeah. So, uh, tell me about a time in your life when you’ve, uh, either like felt ashamed or embarrassed [00:03:00] and maybe something could have gone really wrong, but thankfully may, maybe it didn’t, but tell me about that.
Craig Perra (2): I have sunk to some pretty low places, Dan, and that list is long, but here’s one with something that I can look back at now and laugh. So. One of the deeply shameful places that I would go to act out was the adult bookstores. They
Dan Purcell: Okay.
Craig Perra (2): in the back. You could put a dollar booth in
a dollar bill in the booth and, and watch the movies and do, you know, whatever it is, guys do, you know, behind closed doors,
Dan Purcell: Uhhuh,
Craig Perra (2): is already a really shameful, like, like just, just a, a slimy, smelly. Gusting
Dan Purcell: uh.
Craig Perra (2): and I remember one time walking out and you want to get outta there as quickly as possible because the shame is just like absolutely crushing. And you do not want anyone to see you to come out of this dark cave of, of, of, of shame. And as I’m walking out, I step on a [00:04:00] pile of mango. And my feet slipped out from underneath me.
And just like in a cartoon, my legs are going, squeak, squeak. And I finally. Caught my balance and it felt like I was spinning for minutes, but I could just picture my body crashing onto the ground in the mess that I was in and how symbolic that would be. Um, but that is one of these moments that I look back on a, a little levity, but I know if there’s anybody listening now going to those places, it gets pretty dark there. Uh, but that is definitely, um, one of many moments that sticks out to me in my addiction.
Dan Purcell: Thank you. It, you’re obviously very intelligent. You’re an attorney or have been a practicing attorney and now Yep. And, , you’ve had a a midlife career change devoted to helping men understand how to get themselves out of those dark places like you’ve talked about.
Craig Perra (2): Yes.
Dan Purcell: You know, it’s interesting, we talk [00:05:00] about, on my podcast, eroticism as a life-giving thing with the root word in Greek being aeros, which is, it’s, it doesn’t just mean sexual things, but it’s like, it’s the life force.
It’s what puts a smile on your face, that pep in your step. And ironically, what you just described seemed like the least, life giving. Like it’s, it’s a, it seems dark and closed, not. Open and joyful in, in that world.
Craig Perra (2): Not at all.
Dan Purcell: Yet, for many people it almost feels, compelling almost, um, compulsive this draw to the dark, to that shadow. Can you talk more about why you think that is?
Craig Perra (2): Well, let’s think about us as men.
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Craig Perra (2): Controlling one of the most powerful forces in human nature.
There is few people who will disagree with that statement, whether they’re biologists, psychologists, [00:06:00] psychiatrists. We’re
talking literally about one of the most powerful forces in human nature. Um, and look how most men were boys.
Dan Purcell: Uhhuh.
Craig Perra (2): raised to channel and direct that powerful energy most of us got. I was raised Catholic. uh, sex is dirty and it’s disgusting and it’s shameful. And you’re telling a 7-year-old boy, you’re gonna burn in hell or touching yourself
Dan Purcell: Uh huh.
Craig Perra (2): and it’s a great gift from God and it’s for your wife and beautiful when you’re married, like it does not compute the shame,
Dan Purcell: uh,
Craig Perra (2): the, the shame and the hiding. Stand
Dan Purcell: uh, uh.
Craig Perra (2): the, the behavior is its own thing, but layered that is the shame. We learned from a very early age that this is not something that we are supposed to be doing, not something we’re supposed to be talking about and asking questions about. There’s no mentorship, there’s no role models that [00:07:00] boys that I had, and certainly none of my clients had.
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Craig Perra (2): suppressed mold and, and fungus and disease, you
Dan Purcell: Uhhuh.
Craig Perra (2): in darkness.
Dan Purcell: Yes. Uhhuh.
Craig Perra (2): Got this most powerful force in human nature starting being cloaked with shame and secrets. And
Dan Purcell: Yeah. Yeah. How does this shame fuel it and keep it in the dark?
Craig Perra (2): because you’re so afraid to talk about it. So you’ve got a young boy.
Dan Purcell: Uh.
Craig Perra (2): Who, who, who may be going through stuff like I was as a child, some challenges in my home,
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Craig Perra (2): I had this secret
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Craig Perra (2): it felt wonderful.
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Craig Perra (2): my escape, it
Dan Purcell: Yeah.
Craig Perra (2): release,
it was my reward, it was my freedom. It was my thing that I had, I had no control over so many aspects of my childhood
but I had this.
Dan Purcell: Uhhuh. Gotcha.
Craig Perra (2): I had no one to talk to about it. I was, by [00:08:00] any definition, a hypersexual child.
Dan Purcell: Uhhuh.
Craig Perra (2): And the fact, Dan, that I had no one to talk about it with, led me
Dan Purcell: Uhhuh.
Craig Perra (2): befriending. An older neighborhood boy
Dan Purcell: Uhhuh.
Craig Perra (2): touching me, had a very young age,
Dan Purcell: Uhhuh.
Craig Perra (2): and I had a priest who’s now deceased, killed himself after getting credibly Charged with molesting children. Groomed me
starting at eight, nine years old. So that part of me, that sexual part of me was rooted in shame, was twisted, was deviant, was something to be suppressed and to keep secret.
Dan Purcell: Gotcha. I’m so sorry about that. Abuse as a child, that’s, that’s horrible.
Craig Perra (2): It is. And, and it’s happening to more boys now and more girls now because they’re
Dan Purcell: Yeah.
Craig Perra (2): on, on the internet. So you, you
know, dads and moms listening. You gotta be proactive,
Dan Purcell: Yeah.
Craig Perra (2): about this stuff and thank you for that. And [00:09:00] I wouldn’t be here. You know, I, I. God puts these things in our lives for a reason, Dan.
And it, it, the, you know, coming to the deepest lows has all also brought me to the highest of highs as I learned to respect and cherish and honor this powerful force, um, and use it for good and connection and love and joy and pleasure, um, you know, I wouldn’t be here but
for those experiences. So in, in one way they were a blessing.
’cause now I get to help people.
Dan Purcell: That’s great. So keep going with your story as a young adult, then what happens?
Craig Perra (2): Yeah, so, so I always had these two sides of me. I was very successful. I was very bright, always performed very well on tests. There was no doubt there was some grad school in my future and I
became an attorney. Met my college sweetheart. Michelle in college at the University of Connecticut. Um, we’re still together after a number of my trials and [00:10:00] tribulations, but we’re happily married now after 27 years. But I had had this kind of normal part of myself, successful part of myself, and then I’d have this deep, dark, um, ugly part of myself that went to. Strip clubs, adult bookstores eventually gravitated towards prostitution, um, hookup sites, like just behavior that, that is, the more stressed I got, the worse the behavior got because that was my coping strategy.
Dan Purcell: How did it affect your relationship with Michelle?
Craig Perra (2): Um, it devastated it
’cause I was a liar. I wasn’t in integrity.
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Craig Perra (2): know, I was directing that powerful energy elsewhere. And in order to do things like I did, and if anybody’s listening and struggling with this, you know what I’m talking about. You have, there has to be a narrative that I deserve it. She’s not doing this.
She didn’t do that. [00:11:00] Um, blame, blame, blame, blame, blame.
Dan Purcell: To justify the behavior. Yeah.
Craig Perra (2): To
Dan Purcell: Yeah.
Craig Perra (2): And so that narrative, that lens through which I was experiencing a world was completely immature, irresponsible and inaccurate. none of those things were true. my wife might have nagged me, because she wanted a decent husband to be home and spend time with, and have joy with, and wanted me to be safe.
And here I am projecting all this resentment and control. Onto her. So it created incredible distance in our lives and anyone knows, right? There’s no such thing as a small integrity issue. I had big integrity issues.
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm. And she could sense that of course.
Craig Perra (2): She
Dan Purcell: Yeah.
Craig Perra (2): that.
Dan Purcell: Yeah.
Craig Perra (2): She could sense that.
Dan Purcell: Turning to pornography and things like that, solved the immediate problem.
Craig Perra (2): Yes,
Dan Purcell: alluded it to earlier,
Craig Perra (2): Yes, they did.
Dan Purcell: Because under that stress or under [00:12:00] that, whatever you’re going through at the time, we behave in ways that actually, at least in the short term, it solves something.
What, what would that be? Let’s just really clear about that.
Craig Perra (2): I, I, I love that question because I teach that all behavior is need seeking behavior.
And so for a man coming to me, particularly a faith-based porn addiction addiction program,
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Craig Perra (2): that’s a really difficult pill to swallow for him. What do you mean this behavior is meeting a need?
Dan Purcell: Uhhuh,
Craig Perra (2): It’s helping me regulate stress and anxiety.
Dan Purcell: right? Or boredom. Or any discomfort, right? Uhhuh,
Craig Perra (2): a, any it it, it was my pain pill.
Dan Purcell: it’s like a coping mechanism to deal with the vicissitudes of life.
Craig Perra (2): A coping strategy, um, a release, a
reward. It was safe.
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Craig Perra (2): express myself and do whatever I wanted without judgment or fear. It, it, it was [00:13:00] safe. And became my security blanket.
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Craig Perra (2): a way to help me regulate a profoundly traumatized and dysregulated central nervous system.
Dan Purcell: Gotcha. Yeah. How did that, solution to a problem actually maintain the larger problem in place? Like almost guaranteed that that bigger problem stayed there?
Craig Perra (2): Yeah, because, um, it works. If you are not using drugs and you are completely dysregulated, you’re getting angry, everyone’s out to get you. You are a competitor. You are a man and you’re working and can’t say no and grinding as a young associate like I was in the big law firm and putting in, you know, thousands of hours per year to to, to get ahead.
Dan Purcell: uh.
Craig Perra (2): This was the only coping strategy I had. This was it. I didn’t, I didn’t have any skills. I did some therapy and learned about [00:14:00] trauma and, and certainly some of that was insightful, but to be quite frank, a lot of it kept me stuck, kept me focusing on the past instead of figuring out, you know, who I needed to be. But you know, it, it, it comes very, it’s, it’s, it’s very natural. Men are wired for variety.
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Craig Perra (2): Men are wired visually,
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Craig Perra (2): and that’s another tough pill for some people to follow. But the biology confirms it. We are, and absent stewardship, mentorship, fatherhood, guidance, and leadership. force will run amuck and just look what, what we’re dealing with in society right now.
Dan Purcell: Great. Uh, definitely.
Craig Perra (2): we, we’ve got a multi-billion dollar OnlyFans market, AI girlfriend market. We’re adding billions on top of that with, you know, young boys and men, men grown men. Having relationships with an AI character
Dan Purcell: [00:15:00] Uhhuh Uhhuh.
Craig Perra (2): Like that’s happening. Those are the distractions that we’re fighting against today. and, here, here’s the thing, Dan, these are men that you might work with,
that you see at church. These aren’t fringe broken people living in the bowels of
Dan Purcell: 50 eye,
Craig Perra (2): Yeah. Uh, we are
Dan Purcell: ful people.
Craig Perra (2): coat.
Dan Purcell: no.
Craig Perra (2): these are men just like you and me.
Dan Purcell: I’d say they’re, they’re good people. They really are.
Craig Perra (2): They’re lost. They’re
Dan Purcell: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, you realize, hey, I’m an addict. Or that’s the words that, that you used, right? Like, I’m addicted to this,
Craig Perra (2): Yep. I go to therapy. They say, you are a sex addict.
Dan Purcell: Yep. Uhhuh,
Craig Perra (2): And
Dan Purcell: why does the industry like, to coin this behavior as an addiction? Let’s, let’s talk about that.
Craig Perra (2): yeah, it, it, it is a very well tensioned, uh, group of, of healers that have evolved a treatment [00:16:00] modality
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Craig Perra (2): to call it an addiction, just like the other addictions.
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Craig Perra (2): I say well intentioned because I believe there are a lot of great people out there trying to help. And let’s face it, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, I’m doing something.
I can’t stop addiction.
Dan Purcell: Yeah. Uhhuh,
Craig Perra (2): Addiction
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Craig Perra (2): and, and, and, and the, the word isn’t necessarily as important, then it’s the ideology that comes with the word addiction, instantly evoking 12 Steps, alcoholics Anonymous sobriety. Um, know other concepts that, are not the most effective way to treat this problem for many men and women.
Dan Purcell: Gotcha. Gotcha. Um, that model might make a lot of sense to people, or we might hear that term thrown around like he’s got a porn addiction or
Craig Perra (2): Yes.
Dan Purcell: whatever like in my hometown, there’s, I [00:17:00] dunno if they’re still in business, but there, there was a company where, they bought a house kind of out on the fringes of town.
Beautiful place, beautiful location, but there’re somewhat off grid, so there’s gonna be no internet. And things like that. So. People, mostly men, they, they come there and they stay for like two weeks or a month, and it’s their quote unquote detox time. ’cause there’s no internet, no pornography use, as a treatment.
And they, they walk out of there saying, uh. Hey, you’re cured. You’ve gone two weeks, you’ve gone a month, you know how to deal with this now. But the relapse rate is very high because you remove them out of a stressful, everyday whirlwind of life situation to kind of like a Garden of Eden experience where there’s low temptation or low opportunities for failure.
And then when they come back, they didn’t quite learn the skills to deal with it in the moment.
Craig Perra (2): Well, and, it’s a lifetime journey.[00:18:00]
You know, if, if we agree that physical health isn’t, is important and mental health is important, and spiritual health is important, we have to add to that sexual health, since we’re talking about one of the most powerful drivers of human behavior in, in human beings themselves.
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Craig Perra (2): And so the notion that, um, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve achieved any element of sobriety. Dan is preposterous and sets these people up to fail. Instead, what I teach clients is, Hey, listen, you’re gonna feel really bad one day. Let me give you an example. Uh, my dad, this. On March 1st, and lemme tell you, I had some pretty crazy thoughts. My clients, my clients would forgive me. I got one slip in me, man, I’ve been such a good boy, right? All these crazy thoughts that I had, but I’m not alarmed. I’m not, oh my God, I’m a bad person. Of course, I’m going to get triggered when I experience a new pain and a [00:19:00] great loss that I’ve never experienced before in my life.
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Craig Perra (2): we’re, we’re creatures of habit. So this notion of, um, being able to suppress this, um, and stuff it down, deifying, part of you leaves a lot of men wanting for more, more wholeness, more. do I do about it now? And, and that’s really stepping into your power and being a sexually healthy man and building an identity of someone who prioritizes sexual health.
Because it is so impactful on our mental, physical, and spiritual health, it impacts all three. There aren’t everything that impacts all three, not like this one does.
Dan Purcell: Yeah, definitely.
Craig Perra (2): not a, and that’s the contrast between an identity of a man and his power, who, um, knows in the fiber, has learned through his trials and tribulations that he must. be proactive about channeling and directing this energy versus a man who’s an addict, [00:20:00] hiding and averting and looking away and looking down and, you know, all of these restrictive suppressive behaviors that only violate at least one golden rule of behavior modification. That what you resist persists.
Dan Purcell: Persists. So tell me about, the experience you had where you stopped calling it a porn addiction and you realized that word or that label no longer serves you and those that you serve.
Craig Perra (2): Yeah, no. Um, I love that. So for almost two decades of therapy, I was in treatment for sex addiction.
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Craig Perra (2): Okay. Um, I get fired from a job back east. 16 years ago,
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Craig Perra (2): 15 years ago, I get a bigger job. I fly out here to California. Um, company moved me out here, big fat relocation package, national responsibility. I am now an executive with real, real, real [00:21:00] responsibilities. and within eight months, I, uh. Blew a gasket was acting out with prostitutes and doing some really, really messed up stuff. Um, and I got fired again and I tried to hurt myself and I was hospitalized.
Dan Purcell: Okay. Wow.
Craig Perra (2): I was hospitalized. So I get out of the hospital, it was a three day inpatient. I got out of the hospital and I got my a and a half x 11 tri-fold piece of paper, which said, okay, here’s what you’re going to do next.
And it said, you’re going to go to sex addicts anonymous meetings and you’re gonna go to more therapy.
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Craig Perra (2): And Dan, like, I knew there was no way in hell I was going to do that because I had done that.
Dan Purcell: Yeah, Uhhuh,
Craig Perra (2): I,
Dan Purcell: it didn’t.
Craig Perra (2): it did not, it did not get me where I needed to go. In fact, here I am at my lowest point. So at that lowest point, um, I started to do some research and I found out something that [00:22:00] rocked me into my core. Sex addiction is not an evidence-based treatment model. It is
Dan Purcell: Okay, Uhhuh.
Craig Perra (2): by the DSM. In fact, it had been rejected by the American Psychiatric Association. I went, a minute. I have been in treatment for over, for, uh, almost two decades, and I did not know that this treatment model had been rejected by the American Psychiatric Association, rejected by other countries similar boards.
The World Health Organization doesn’t call it sex addiction. They call it sexually Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. intentionally making that distinction. And so I knew at that low point I had to do something different.
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Craig Perra (2): I found a provider who did not subscribe to the disease-based model, but had been through this himself, um, was the first time I started learning practical tools. Um, first time I was exposed to parts work. The first time anyone even suggested I could [00:23:00] bring mindfulness, which really interested me into my practice to be a better person. And so it was like I had a coach who was really, really practical, giving me. Um, you know, the different levers that I need to pull of capacity to create the capacity so I can be a decent person and be the best man that I can possibly be.
So it was at that low point where, I mean, listen, if you go back to listen to some of my old podcasts, I’m a little embarrassed the way that I would bash the model. You know, how dare these therapists violate their legal and ethical obligation? And, and, and listen. Listen. And a lot of your patients now, if they’re gonna see a therapist using this model,
there’s a consent form
Dan Purcell: Uhhuh.
Craig Perra (2): that says, Hey, just so you know, this is not approved by the a PA.
Dan Purcell: Okay. Uh.
Craig Perra (2): Right? Right. so that. That was my, and it was disrespectful to people who got value in the model. It was disrespectful. Heck, I charge people. The model is [00:24:00] free, and you certainly can’t beat that. And there are so many benefits of the model, the recognizing that you, you need help, um, embracing community, bringing people closer to their faith. Um, uh, so many, many, many, many, many benefits. But what I realized for me, Dan, what and, and what is true for. All of my clients was that there is a net negative in basing your identity, framing your identity around. Hi, my name is Craig and I am a sex addict.
Dan Purcell: Okay, Uhhuh.
Craig Perra (2): There is no other place in self-help. Hey, my name’s Craig.
I’m a filthy, freaking liar. my name is Craig. I, I, I’m, I eat too much. Right? It, it just, it, it, it, it just doesn’t, doesn’t resonate from an identity perspective and I think that, that I, you know, like think about and you know, the guys in the [00:25:00] relationship. Hey, did you go your wife, did you go to your sex addiction classes?
Did you do your sex addiction? Did you get turned on today? Did you see anything? You shouldn’t have seen it. It turns the wifes into detectives. It
Dan Purcell: Yes.
Craig Perra (2): living in reactive land
Dan Purcell: Yes.
Craig Perra (2): them into a stinking liar. Hey, did you see anything, um, triggering today? No, honey, nothing. Nothing like, not a nothing you didn’t, your eyes didn’t know, you know, notice anything. And so it’s the anchoring to the disease based identity is actually harmful for some people. The power dynamic, Dan, that it creates in the relationship as unhealthy, not just for the man, but is also unhealthy for his partner. And she sh should not be put, you know, in that role as his caretaker and his checker up on her.
Dan Purcell: Right Uhhuh.
Craig Perra (2): none of that, of that produces the ultimate goal, which has to be [00:26:00] healthy sexuality and integrity.
Dan Purcell: It’s gotta come from the inside out, not from the outside in.
Craig Perra (2): Not from the outside
Dan Purcell: right?
Craig Perra (2): from the inside out. There
has
Dan Purcell: yeah.
Craig Perra (2): be an identity shift where I respect my sexual energy. I am a man of integrity. I appreciate its power, and I am going to be vigilant in protecting that power. And, and that includes the little things too, like the titillating ads like I, I just don’t do it.
Like, I don’t want that in my body. I don’t like high ferial corn syrup in my body. I’m 54 years old. I’m 170 pounds, the best shape of my life.
Dan Purcell: Uhhuh
Craig Perra (2): do not want that in my body because I know where it goes.
Dan Purcell: Uhhuh.
Craig Perra (2): I know where it goes. I don’t have any doubt in my mind that I would fall back to all of my old patterns if I didn’t keep doing the things that make me successful.
Dan Purcell: Yeah. That’s so good.
Craig Perra (2): I’m done with never again.
Dan Purcell: You told me prior to recording, you had this, uh, [00:27:00] insightful conversation with, uh, Dr. Robert Glover. He’s written a popular book called No More Mr. Nice Guy. And in this conversation you learned something emasculating about certain terms we tend to use with. Now, of course, respect to those that, um, have seen a lot of success or help calling it a pornography addiction or sex addiction.
But, um, your insight, tell me about your insight,
Craig Perra (2): Yes,
Dan Purcell: that.
Craig Perra (2): so, um, I had Dr. Robert Glover on my podcast, and my podcast used to be named Sex Afflictions and Porn Addictions. Okay, Dan, I went for, directly for the SEO Sex Addictions and Porn Addictions.
Dan Purcell: Yep. Uhhuh.
Craig Perra (2): And I have always been a vocal, um, advocate of alternative methods,
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Craig Perra (2): Dr. Robert Glover said something on that podcast, and so for you guys who are listening, one no more, Mr.
Nice Guy should be mandatory reading for you. People pleasers out there in his [00:28:00] book, he touts the benefits of the sex addiction model, and I asked him in the interview, do you still hold those beliefs? And he said something that completely. Resulted in a significant change in my business. Um, and in my podcast he says, the model is great.
Short term,
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Craig Perra (2): long term, it’s emasculating.
Dan Purcell: Okay.
Craig Perra (2): So this is like the godfather of men’s help written that legendary book
he calling the Model Emasculating, and what the words he gave me, Dan, in that moment captured. I’ve talked about the corrosive power dynamic. I’ve talked about how it keeps men out of their power and anchor to their worst part of themselves.
I had all those conversations, almost academic. Like evidence-based critiques of the model. And that word emasculating captured so much of mine
and my client’s experience with the model and, so the [00:29:00] more sex addiction you tend to go, the more religious it tends to be.
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Craig Perra (2): The more emasculated that those mens are polygraphs every six months. Um, just really things that aren’t ultimately building a trustful
Dan Purcell: Uh.
Craig Perra (2): relationship. And you know, like, and I asked the wises, do you want a husband who identifies as a sex addict? Or do you want a man who’s learned from his mistakes and stepped into his power? Is move beyond that label. I think I, I know the, well, there’s may be a few, there’s may be a few and you, you know, you can work on that. You
Dan Purcell: Yeah.
Craig Perra (2): invite, I invite you to, to challenge yourself there. But no, they don’t want that. They don’t want
Dan Purcell: S
Craig Perra (2): They don’t
Dan Purcell: what I hear you say, my ver my interpretation, what you’re saying is this, it’s like, um, if I [00:30:00] had a, a bad habit and if I could call it an addiction, it almost means I’m dissolved of responsibility ’cause it’s my addiction. That does this. It’s like my disease that does, it’s like a problem. It, we, we’ve pathologized it.
Craig Perra (2): Yes,
Dan Purcell: it’s now external to me. Whereas what you’re talking about is bringing back agency. It’s, I have a choice here. I have power here. I’m not completely powerless to this. And
Craig Perra (2): yes, yes.
Dan Purcell: grace and, and tools that are helpful in everything, I can gain the strength and power. You know, to become better at, at handling this, this power, but it puts the focus back within me, like the power is back in me, not outside of me.
Craig Perra (2): Yes. it’s growing from a place of strength on the inside versus calling your conditioned disease. Right?
Because that’s what it is in
12. So you have a disease, and for my Christian brothers listening, right? [00:31:00] Not only is that a disease, that’s the demon
that, that, that’s where the devil takes root, and that’s where he takes over.
And, and what they do is they demonize that attic part. They
disease justify that part.
Dan Purcell: Yeah.
Craig Perra (2): Which is the same part, trying to help them deal with stress, help them escape, help them be sexually fulfilled, whatever it is, it’s
meeting a need. And so by diversifying that broken, wounded parts of you that needs, what would Jesus do if you walked by that attic part on the side of the road?
P, you filt the animal. That was even sacrilege to even suggest could, it’s preposterous to suggest. ’cause the answer is no. He would lead that part. He would love
Dan Purcell: Yeah.
Craig Perra (2): And, and, and, surprise, surprise. That’s the solution.
Dan Purcell: Uh.
Craig Perra (2): the solution. Self-leadership and self-love is the solution to this problem.
Dan Purcell: You’ve also talked about parts work a little bit. Maybe my listeners have never heard of that before. Give me a quick overview of that.
Craig Perra (2): [00:32:00] Gosh. Quick overview of parts work. If any of you have seen the Pixar movie Inside Out,
Dan Purcell: Uhhuh, one of my favorites.
Craig Perra (2): Yep. Where they had the characters and the teenage girl’s brain. There was anger, anxiety, um, embarrassment, et cetera. And those characters are essentially parts that’s based on, part modular mind theory and part, like an internal family systems model influence.
And, and, and lemme lemme just break it down. For the man who’s struggling with porn addiction and sex addiction, is a part of you that has very different values and beliefs. Then this other part of you that wants to be the best person possible, right there is this conflict
and the way that conflict is often presented in the de disease-based model, Dan, it’s the angel.
It’s the devil. We go to the angel and suppress and kill the devil. Okay. But there’s a reality that this [00:33:00] part has been trained over many, many years to meet needs of escape, pleasure, release, reward. Um, it’s a coping strategy at at, at its core, it is a coping strategy.
Dan Purcell: mm-hmm.
Craig Perra (2): so. In traditional recovery, we demonize and disease justify that part. In, in parts work. We get curious about it and try to understand it and, and ultimately through that understanding, um, lead it and love it and support it. When is a
monster, not a monster? Oh, when you love it.
Dan Purcell: Okay, good.
Craig Perra (2): And so the wonderful Book on Parts work from a Christian perspective was written by Jenna Erma, and in the name of the book is Altogether You, and it basically says that there is a center and a core. That we all have inside [00:34:00] us, and the science version of that is called the Self Gestalt had a name for it. Carl Young had a name for it I was raised a Catholic. That’s the Holy Spirit,
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Craig Perra (2): right? Right. This
little light of mine, I’m gonna let it shine.
Dan Purcell: Right. Uhhuh.
Craig Perra (2): we all have this leader, this boss, this godly image inside all of us, and that is the center of the operating system leads and loves these angry part, shame, part, liar part to positive outcomes. It dramatically reduces the friction and the infighting, and the scolding and the yelling, and the, it, it just, it just, when, when you, when you truly understand the behaviors that you are labeled bad
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Craig Perra (2): are behaviors that have been trained over a lifetime and beyond to meet needs, it completely changes the internal [00:35:00] dynamic.
Dan Purcell: So it’s less about shaming the parts of you that you’ve labeled bad, but it’s learning how to shepherd and lead and guide the different parts of you. Towards goodness,
Craig Perra (2): Correct.
Dan Purcell: goodness.
Craig Perra (2): Correct.
Dan Purcell: That’s good. Which requires self-leadership,
Craig Perra (2): Well,
Dan Purcell: of self-compassion, a lot of patience, a lot of learning,
Craig Perra (2): a lot of love, a lot of
Dan Purcell: a lot of grace, Uhhuh,
Craig Perra (2): a lot of grace, you know, all, all principles your listeners are very familiar with and, you know, let’s take the shame part right in, in, in, in traditional therapy and, you know, shame we all, shame is bad. Guilt is good. Shame means I did, I am bad. Guilt means I did something bad.
I get all that, but let me just, just, just, just pose this for a second. Okay. What is that shame part trying to accomplish? It’s trying to keep us on the straight and narrow. It’s con, it’s an evolutionary wired trait to protect us [00:36:00] from doing things that ultimately could have resulted in the old days, again, kicked out of the tribe, which resulted in.
Dan Purcell: Yep. Yes. Uhhuh.
Craig Perra (2): this shame part that that, that so many people want to hate and, and wanna shame and belittle
Dan Purcell: Uhhuh.
Craig Perra (2): it’s a biology thing and it’s in all of us. But who would you be without it?
Dan Purcell: Yeah.
Craig Perra (2): What would your life look like if you did not have that shame part? We, we’d be like, Lord of the flies, man,
Dan Purcell: There’s healthy shame, I guess is what you’re trying to say. Uhhuh
Craig Perra (2): There’s
Dan Purcell: guardrails. Uhhuh.
Craig Perra (2): that part is my moral compass.
That is
Dan Purcell: Uhhuh.
Craig Perra (2): advisor.
Dan Purcell: Yes. Uhhuh.
Craig Perra (2): is, that, is that, that, those are my guidelines. I want that part.
Dan Purcell: Right.
Craig Perra (2): But so many people hate it, want to get rid of it, but they truly don’t understand. Again, back to the premise, all behavior is need seeking behavior, including the behaviors you hate.
Dan Purcell: Hmm, [00:37:00] that’s good. And pandering to the shame that means living your life, you know, controlled by the shame that’s not healthy.
Craig Perra (2): No.
Dan Purcell: And then, uh, saying I’m completely shame free and having. Zero shame, zero conscious. That’s not a healthy way of living either. So the truth is kind of resolving that paradox is what I hear you saying.
Craig Perra (2): And that’s what parts work does. It takes that paradox of the. You know, angel, who doesn’t want to do the bad things and the devil who wants to do all these bad things, when is a monster, not a monster? Oh, when you love it. From my favorite poem by Catherine Seale. Um, because it just, it, it, it speaks to me so much because I hated my at part.
For years, I tried to kill him and I actually did try to hurt myself
At my lowest point, everything changed. When I, when I took all that trauma work that I did over here and said, wait a minute, wait [00:38:00] a minute at part. That’s what you experienced. That’s where you came from. That’s where you learned how to act like this and how you learned to lie and keep secrets and feel shame and have an incredible ability to compartmentalize and do all these terrible things and walk home and say, Hey, everybody, daddy’s home. Like I understood that part from a so much different perspective, and that understanding allowed me to lead it. To love it. It softens, it heals occasionally. Flares up like recently when my dad died, but that’s okay.
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Craig Perra (2): That just, that part’s telling me I need something right now. I better call somebody.
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Craig Perra (2): I better reach out to a friend. I better make some extra time to spend, um, with my wife and, and connect or pray and meditate.
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Craig Perra (2): a call to action versus a call to shame.
Dan Purcell: I love that it’s taking that agency back. You’re like taking, you’re claiming that again.
Craig Perra (2): Yes,
Dan Purcell: That’s so good. [00:39:00] This has been such a great conversation, Craig. Where can people go to learn more about what you do?
Craig Perra (2): sure. Um, they can visit a mindful habit help.com. I have a free training called The Six Transformational Truths that changed everything from me. So if you’re hearing something that says, wait, that sounds crazy. Did it just say All behaviors need seeking behavior? to the training, you’ll, I’ll explain it in, in a lot more detail.
You’ll get it. You’ll see why what you might be doing is actually holding you back and, and even possibly give you a new way forward.
Dan Purcell: That’s so good. Great. Thank you.
Craig Perra (2): Thank you. You’re welcome.
Dan : Thank you for listening. This was quite a raw episode, wasn’t it? Some big things that stuck out to me is just how much shame can really hollow out a person. Also, how the language we use, such as labeling ourselves as an addict, can sometimes limit our ability to actually overcome, and how important it is to really go deep inside ourselves and understand [00:40:00] that sometimes , our behavior, even the destructive behavior, is trying to solve something, even though it’s not solving it very well.
It keeps the bigger problem in place. So understanding where those motives come and understanding that better is really the key to unlocking your next level so you don’t have to live in that low-level shame anymore. I hope this episode’s been helpful for you or someone that you know. Uh, please share this podcast with your friends, and go get your marriage on.
