Better se/x isn’t just about what happens in the bedroom.
In this episode, Dan sits down with Zach Watson to unpack the hidden emotional and mental work happening inside many marriages — and why it has such a powerful impact on intimacy.
They talk about invisible labor, mental load, emotional safety, and the loneliness that can build when one partner feels like they’re carrying everything alone. Zach shares practical ways couples can better share responsibility, communicate more clearly, and create more trust and partnership at home.
You’ll also hear:
- Why “helping” can sometimes create more frustration
- The difference between doing a task and owning it
- How emotional labor affects desire and connection
- Why empathy matters so much in se/xual intimacy
- Simple ways couples can work more like teammates
This episode is honest, practical, and full of moments that will help you better understand your partner — and yourself.
Episode Resources
Thriving Together: How to Share the Mental Load in Marriage (GYMO Guide)
Get ready for International Lovemaking Day with Intimately Us!
Find Zach on Socials: @zachmentalloadcoach (Instagram) and @zachthinkshare (Facebook)
Zach’s Free Mental Load Basics Skool Community
Disclaimer: The opinions and values expressed by guests on the Get Your Marriage On! podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions and values of the host. Appearance on the podcast does not imply an endorsement of the guest or their products by Get Your Marriage On or its host. While we work hard to bring you quality and valuable content, listeners are encouraged to use their own best judgment in applying the information or products discussed on this podcast.
Guest: Zach Watson
Zach Watson is a Mental Load Coach for men teaching them to improve their relationships by better understanding the invisible labor happening in their homes and improving on their emotional literacy and fluency.
Transcript
This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors or inaccuracies. For the most accurate and complete experience, we recommend listening to the full podcast episode.
Zach Watson: [00:00:00] when you don’t feel emotionally safe with somebody because. You don’t feel like they empathize with you fully. It’s hard to take your clothes off in front of that.
Dan: Mental load is the idea that even though you might be sharing tasks in your relationship, in your marriage specifically, there’s work that needs to be done that requires a lot of cognitive and emotional work. It’s hard to put it into, action because so much of what needs to be done requires a lot of thinking through and planning to execute well.
And in most relationships, in most marriages, [00:01:00] women carry far more of this mental load, creating what they call invisible labor. It’s work that she does more than he does in the relationship to carry the household forward, even if she’s the primary breadwinner. Now, in this episode, I’ve invited my friend Zach Watson, who has learned about his role to work with in his marriage about, invisible labor and mental load, and specifically applying it in how works in the intimate relationship, especially in the s*xual domain.
You’re gonna hear him explain these different concepts. You’re gonna hear him talk about how instead of asking if you can help your spouse, a better word to use instead, what that’s going to be. He’s gonna talk about boring meetings. Boring is an acronym, B-O-R-I-N-G. You’ll get to hear what he means by that, and a bunch of other things that’s gonna help you in your marriage relationship, whether you’re a man or a woman listening to this episode, and
how you can cultivate a more shared labor and work on that mental [00:02:00] load and that emotional labor together as a team.
June 9th is right around the corner. June 9th, as you know, is International Lovemaking Day because it’s six nine on the calendar. It’s also Intimately Us’s birthday and to celebrate, we’re doing a International Lovemaking Day challenge and a contest. And this year we’re doing something new we have never done before.
We’ve also curated four amazing s*xy bedroom boxes. Check your inbox if you subscribe to the mailing list or our website or our Instagram for more information about these four s*xy boxes that you can get. One’s gonna come out in June, another in August, then October, and the last one in December in time for Christmas.
And if you’re still thinking about coming on our Get Your Marriage On cruise, we have one or two spots left if you want to snag them. You’ll find all those details at getyourmarriageon.com/events.
Now let me introduce you to Zach Watson
Episode Start
Dan Purcell: Zach, welcome to the Get Your Marriage on [00:03:00] Podcast. How are you this morning,
Zach Watson: Thanks for having me, Dan. Um, it’s a, it is very cold out here, one degree.
Dan Purcell: Uhhuh?
Zach Watson: but overall good to be here.
Dan Purcell: Yeah, I enjoyed chatting with you today too, and there’s something wonderful about, your style and, uh, you have this remarkable ability to connect with others emotionally. And maybe it’s your openness, it’s your willingness to. Like, let other people know you. But I’ve been really impressed with that.
Like even this morning you’ve been sharing about some of your concerns and worries and some of the things you’re looking forward to, but you do it in such a natural way. I think a lot of people can learn that from you just by observing how you do it. So,
Zach Watson: Thank you. I appreciate that.
Dan Purcell: so I think our listeners are gonna learn a lot today because, you have a quality that a lot of men don’t have, and I think if they had it, their marriages especially their sex lives will be a lot better.
Zach Watson: Mm-hmm.
Dan Purcell: But I’m sure you weren’t born with this quality. So let’s talk about a time you’ve had a fail when it comes to picking up your wife’s, [00:04:00] needs, or, you put a lot of, uh, load on her unnecessarily. Let’s, let’s go with that.
Zach Watson: Yeah, the, you know, the first story that kind of comes to mind is Alyssa and I were separated back in 2018 and a couple months before that, I remember there was this moment where I was in the kitchen. I was like starting to, I think, get cooking ready. I was cleaning a little bit as I went, like a little bit more than normal and I knew that, you know, I was, I was feeling like. I’m feeling a little aroused and we’re like, I would love to be, to be intimate tonight. through the door and I’m thinking to myself, I’m on top of my stuff, like I’m cooking. Like I’ve already started the process. I haven’t asked her anything. And again, this is before I had like mental load or like invisible labor as a language to talk.
Dan Purcell: Uh,
Zach Watson: Um, but I remember she made a comment of like, Hey, you’re, this is interesting. You’re like kind of ahead of things. And probably, I don’t know if I should have or should not have like [00:05:00] this out loud,
but I ended up saying something like, yeah, I feel like sometimes all the time I’m kind of like every moment of life is a little bit of a pop quiz on whether we can be intimate tonight on
whether I’m on top of my shit or not. Um, whether I’m on top of like the labor around the home and. That was a huge turnout for her. Uh, was hearing that. Um, but at the same time, I think I, I knew I was, I knew there was some accuracy in what my experience was,
Dan Purcell: Uh
Zach Watson: but the fact that I was calling it out was like a painful experience for her.
Dan Purcell: mm-hmm.
Zach Watson: it sounded so transactional the way that I was saying it. and I, you know, I talked recently with this guy, Jordan Carlos, that has a book that just came out called Chore Play, which I gristle at that phrase, which some, some of the listeners may have heard before because it, it. creates this transactional experience of like, if I do chores, then we can have sex.
This is a positive for me. This is a positive for you. Rather [00:06:00] than seeing that both things are a positive for both people, they might value it a little bit differently, but. I think that in that moment, that was, it was a scary moment for me to share that out loud. While it was also kind of off the cuff, but it opened up a longer term conversation about what invisible labor is for both of us, how it’s valued differently for both of us in the pain experience that she has when it’s not done versus the, oh, I’m, the bar is low.
I’m jumping just above the bar. so that maybe we can be intimate together and how transactional, I actually saw it back then,
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Zach Watson: now I see it in a totally different context, which is like, if we’re thriving as a home, it’s because I am meeting the standard that we created together rather than this potential standard that I’m kind of making up in my head.
Dan Purcell: Got it. Oh, cool. Alright, so what is invisible labor or what is the mental load you, you said those terms? If [00:07:00] our listeners aren’t familiar with it, help us understand.
Zach Watson: So invisible labor is going to be your kind of blanket term for a lot of things that are typically not valued. So usually we are talking about physical domestic tasks. So I’m gonna break it into a couple, four or five pieces. physical labor, those are things that you can catch on camera. So they’re sweeping, could be really small things that you still catch on camera, right. Having it done, but might be hard to notice that it’s done. It’s the strawberries were in the fridge a little bit too long and now there’s a little bit of red stuff on the shelf, cleaning
Dan Purcell: huh.
Zach Watson: off. Um, there’s a little bit of gunk, forming in the bottom of the toilet.
Let’s, let’s brush that out. that’s your, that’s your physical but it’s also like doing laundry. It’s like physically bringing the kids to school and driving. It’s shoveling.
Dan Purcell: It’s like
Zach Watson: guys don’t
Dan Purcell: more the things you notice when they’re not done.
Zach Watson: mm-hmm.
Dan Purcell: you notice when they are done.
Zach Watson: Yeah.
Dan Purcell: Yeah.
Zach Watson: So that’s your sort of first category of invisible labor is the physical domestic stuff that’s pretty [00:08:00] obvious.
Dan Purcell: Okay.
Zach Watson: the clerical labor, which pretty similar to it. It’s like bill paying, it’s like sending a check in the mail. There’s some physicality to it. Typically it might be button clicking on a screen. but again, like scheduling a doctor’s appointment, sending an email over to the teacher to make sure that the project isn’t on time. Um, making sure that you have the right materials, a play date with the kid.
Dan Purcell: Uh huh.
Zach Watson: your clerical labor. Similar, there’s like a tiny little bit of physicality. You would barely notice it on a camera.
Dan Purcell: Uhhuh.
Zach Watson: but it usually, it is usually paper or like virtually in intensive. Then
Dan Purcell: Right?
Zach Watson: you have, I’m gonna say the two.
So there’s mental load slash cognitive labor. And then there’s emotional labor. So cognitive labor is much more left brain. It’s thinking, it’s remembering, calculating. Let’s see, we need to leave here at seven 20 to get on time to the event by 7 45. so that means we actually need, our kid needs to go potty, it needs to brush [00:09:00] their teeth.
We needs to get a snack in five minutes before that. So that, so like that kind of calculating, that’s cognitive labor. Um.
Dan Purcell: Yeah.
Zach Watson: And the person that just shows up like, all right, we all ready to go. Cool. Uh, but they haven’t thought through those. They’re not doing the cognitive labor.
Dan Purcell: Uh
Zach Watson: and then there’s emotional labor, which is often the other layer along with that cognitive labor.
So
Dan Purcell: hmm.
Zach Watson: there’s like, Hmm, I don’t wanna be perceived as the late person. I know that our kid, if we just rush them out the door. Yeah, gonna have a hard time. So I’m gonna give them a couple reminders while they’re watching their show that, Hey, there’s three minutes left. Hey, there’s one minute left.
We’re gonna turn the laptop off and brush our teeth when you’re done. That’s emotionally right. That’s care labor. So
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Zach Watson: is usually the like, emotion based reason that you’re even thinking through something. and I was actually, I’m looking forward to in, a couple weeks, I’m going down to dc.
There’s about 40. in the world that, that [00:10:00] do work on mental load and cognitive labor to really define what that term is. ’cause I think there’s a lot of differing opinions. Minuscule but differing. Um, and the way that Leo, I’m gonna get her name wrong, Ru Ner, talks about it is mental load is kind of the intersection of when cognitive meets emotional. So when people are saying, Hey, like. I’m the only one carrying the mental load here. It’s caring about the kids’ experience in getting out the door, but it’s also doing the calculation for how the heck to get outta the door in that timing. so usually if, you know, if one of the listeners here has seen one of my videos, ’cause if it’s a guy that it’s, it was shared by their partner or if it’s a woman that was more likely I showed up on your for you page or your,
Dan Purcell: Uhhuh.
Zach Watson: feed.
Um, it’s probably ’cause I was hitting a pain point or talking a little bit about. The pain and the, the lonely experience that a lot of women experience when they feel like they’re the only one carrying the mental load on something.
Dan Purcell: Yeah. All [00:11:00] right. So, like tons of stories are coming to my mind as you’re talking, right? It’s like, okay, there’s an errand that I could run,
Zach Watson: Mm-hmm.
Dan Purcell: I don’t want to. I’m busy, so I ask my wife to do it ’cause she has time. She’s at home with the kids. Why can’t she just do it?
Zach Watson: Mm-hmm. one of the things you’re going to hear me do throughout this episode is my, a huge, one of my jobs in 92nd videos and podcasts is to label the heck out of. A lot of different moments. So what I’m hearing in that is it is on your cognitive load is there’s some mental load of knowing that a task exists and needs to get done. There’s some logistical consideration of do I have the capacity to do it? Um, does my wife have the capacity to do it? So again, a little bit of cognitive labor, thinking that through, and then emotionally considering what’s the impact of the thing that I’m busy with right now. What’s the emotional impact of her doing that? it significantly more effort for her to do it? Is it significantly more effort for me to do it? What’s [00:12:00] the, what’s the more intrusive task? So I would argue in that moment as you’re thinking through that, that was cognitive labor. Now, if you then say, Hey, this thing needs to get picked up. Can you go do it?
It then the execution you’re putting on her, but also if, if she’s with the kids, like juggling, you know, bringing multiple kids with you to go do an errand, we all know is not a simple task sometimes. And you gotta, sometimes you gotta coax ’em in to do it. Sometimes you have to add a random incentive like, hey, we’ll get ice cream when we come back.
Um, or you can play with your, you favorite toy or something. versus like us doing it on our own, sometimes that’s less cognitive labor ’cause it’s literally just us getting out the door without kids. So I’m gonna, I’m gonna say back to you a lot of the things that you say in this episode using invisible labor vocabulary. I think that’s the magic of what people find useful in my videos, is that I am putting vocabulary and putting specific language onto things that they experience every day.
Dan Purcell: Uh,
Zach Watson: of my favorite [00:13:00] comics is. Two fish that are swimming fish swims by and says, Hey, how’s the water today?
Dan Purcell: uh.
Zach Watson: And then they look at each other confused and they’re like, what’s water?
Um, and, and so I feel like so many of us, were swimming in water all the time. We’re swimming in all this labor. We don’t understand why it feels heavy. We don’t understand why we feel lonely. We don’t understand why there’s, there are these like weird dynamics between us, similar with emotions. I think a lot of people are emotionally illiterate.
We talked about the other day on my episode, um, I think that all I’m doing is I’m pointing out water to people swimming in it.
Dan Purcell: Yeah. Alright, awesome. So, labor exists, emotional labor exists. Invisible labor just, it is, it’s just part of life. We’re gonna have these different loads, but what we wanna talk about is how that’s shared and how that’s discussed in a marriage, in the relationship. ’cause that’s often, not completely discussed or shared.
[00:14:00] Well, can we talk on that a little bit?
Zach Watson: Sure. Yeah, and I would say the, a lot of the research that’s being done shows that women are carrying significantly more invisible labor than men are.
Dan Purcell: Yeah.
Zach Watson: that’s a mixture of the evolution of, the cultural systems that we’re in. So, uh, especially we look like back at the fifties where it was very normal and acceptable for to go out to work.
The woman would manage the kids. It was very expected of her to be a stay at home mom, and everything in that domain was hers. As we progress closer towards today’s age, there’s way more two income households where. more women than not are also in the workplace,
Dan Purcell: Yeah.
Zach Watson: or in person. and what we are not seeing as much of is that domestic labor, the ownership of the, the children and those, those invisible labor tasks that has not gone towards men as much. As women have also started making financial income as well. So while [00:15:00] we’ve seen more women in the workplace, we haven’t seen the invisible labor switch over to the men as much. Now, men today are doing significantly more than their fathers did, from an evolution in change perspective, it doesn’t compare with the amount of work that women are also doing because they’re in the workplace.
Dan Purcell: Gotcha. Gotcha.
Zach Watson: And, and I think, and you know, I know one of the things we talked about before this episode was like, how does that relate to sex and intimacy? And I think a huge part of where that becomes a problem too, is a lot of men are saying like, Hey, like. Can, can we cuddle tonight? Can we, can we do some intimate things? And while he’s asking for that, it might sound and feel more almost selfish when she’s also wondering, okay, how am I gonna get the kids to soccer practice tomorrow? I need to reschedule Johnny’s dentist appointment. man, Lucy has, she’s starting to grow out of her 5-year-old clothes. We [00:16:00] need to go clothes shopping, but we’re kind of tight on finances. Wait, you want to touch me now? What? Um, and so that’s a really lonely experience for people in all of those, the heaviness of what it feels like to own that. And I think, furthermore, I think I’m grateful that I’ve now been able to see this a lot better is Alyssa’s going through that ticker tape in her head, there’s also a perception experience that she’s gonna have that’s different than mine. When the child is wearing too small of clothes and they’re out in public or they’re at school, who does that judgment fall on?
Dan Purcell: On her.
Zach Watson: Yeah. It,
Dan Purcell: Yeah.
Zach Watson: fall on dad. And there was a, there was a moment when we were going to a fair back in, and I made a mistake. I forgot the jacket as we were getting out the door, I had said I was going to own like the getting out the door piece while she sent some work emails. And when I said, oh shoot, I forgot our, [00:17:00] the jacket for her, she was in a lot of emotional pain and I was grateful she was one, had the safe space to talk it out, but two, that I was able to see and understand the perception of like, yeah, Zach, like she doesn’t have a jacket. And we’re walking around, it’s like pretty cold out.
Like, you gonna get judged for that or am I gonna get judged for that? And me being able to hear that I know was really valuable for her to be able to say. Yeah, I totally hear that. And I think there’s a lot of guys. think a previous me, maybe five or more years ago might have said like, so what?
Just like screw them. Like just don’t care about that.
Dan Purcell: Uhhuh.
Zach Watson: knowing that that pain experience is something that happens to us more than, that we have full control over, that I think has been a big turning point for me and seeing the perception difference, appreciating that her emotions are valid and that I don’t get to just like say no.
Screw that.
Dan Purcell: Uh.
Zach Watson: And taking more actions and, trying to improve on how I own more of those things so that she doesn’t have a lonely experience [00:18:00] within that.
Dan Purcell: Gotcha. So you work with couples primarily? probably mostly men, I’m assuming,
Zach Watson: Yep.
Dan Purcell: how they can just understand how to share the mental load better in their relationships.
Zach Watson: Mm-hmm.
Dan Purcell: Any examples of people you’ve worked with? where you probably, they didn’t see it at first. You helped them see some things, any specifics, and then kind of what happened after that.
Because I think part of what you’re talking about, like if I was your client here, I’d be thinking, oh, I’m, I think I’m pretty good. But maybe your skill is helping them kind of see the invisible, right. You, we can’t, we can’t fix what we can’t see.
Zach Watson: Yeah, you’re swimming in water right now and I, you know, one of the places that I look for and my favorite aspect of seeing the guys do their homework, is week three of the training I take the, you know, those invisible labor terms I gave to you at the beginning there, and I, I asked them, each of the five-ish categories. which of those do you do at work? Which of those do you do at home? Which of those does your wife do at work? Which of those does your wife do at home? [00:19:00] If one of you is a stay at home parent, if you had to substitute in a nanny, that be the work aspect of the at home, your partner’s piece or earpiece and watching their epiphanies.
Uh, and the other thing that I push them on often.
Dan Purcell: Uhhuh
Zach Watson: Uh, for mental or cognitive labor is they might say she just does it all and they’re like, pass. Try again. I want you to list out if she does it all, gimme a minimum, like 10 things that she does. And I want you to be super detailed in it
Dan Purcell: Uhhuh.
Zach Watson: forcing them to come up with kind of like I broke down
Dan Purcell: Gimme a few examples.
Zach Watson: Um. She is the one that pays attention to when the toilet paper is getting low and adds it to the grocery cart. And then when it comes back in the grocery shop shopping list, um, she’s the one that brings it, takes it outta the packaging, puts it under the sink, and, arranges it so that we can also reach the other stuff under [00:20:00] the, underneath the sink.
Dan Purcell: Okay, Uhhuh.
Zach Watson: I just named What, five different things with something that is like, some people just experience like there’s a
Dan Purcell: they take for granted probably. Yeah.
Zach Watson: a toilet paper ferry that lives in our house, and I don’t know how it gets there.
Dan Purcell: Uhhuh.
Zach Watson: Um,
Dan Purcell: And when you’re out toilet paper, who do you blame?
Zach Watson: yeah. you know, I think of a bunch of other, like cleaning products, toothbrushes, toothpaste, like those things.
I, I know that Alyssa’s historically stayed on top of significantly more than I have, and. It’s a rare occasion when I am looking around and need, need to buy something. ’cause she’s typically a weaker, more ahead of me in thinking about it. so I think in terms of like the transformation that I see from a lot of guys, I think it’s when I’m seeing them do those assignments, think through those things and forcing them to come up with examples of it, um, there’s a certain level of empathy that.
Uh, I don’t, I don’t usually get the opportunity to see it glaze over their face in real time, um, of [00:21:00] like, oh my God. Um, but I can see it. So I run a community on, on the school platform. Um, and when they’re doing their homework assignments, I think one of the other prompts of that homework assignment is like, what was the most surprising piece of what you ended up writing here?
And those are, those are some of my favorite responses, is them. Seeing the heaviness kind of sink in of like, wow. Like I can actually see why that is a lonely experience, that I haven’t bought toothpaste for 10 years. I haven’t bought toilet paper for five years. Um, I haven’t thought about the size of my children’s clothes and do we keep this?
Do I, are we gonna have more kids? Do I organize it really neatly into a, into a container that we can break out six years later for when the other, for
Dan Purcell: where do I store it?
Zach Watson: sibling comes and is age six? I think there was another epiphany that I had around cognitive labor, right around when I had read Fair Play, which is the book that really opened up for me by Eve
Dan Purcell: I’ve read that book [00:22:00] too. Uhhuh.
Zach Watson: Yeah, it’s so good. and I think not all guys will be able to get through that book. I run a course Fair play 1 0 1
Dan Purcell: Uhhuh.
Zach Watson: walks it through like a textbook, and I tell them for anyone that is hearing this book, and like, okay, my wife’s talked about this. I’ll go get it now, I guess. Stay on the rollercoaster like It’s an emotional rollercoaster. Don’t get off the rollercoaster mid ride. Um, if you get off before chapter three, you may find yourself angry and resentful. I really encourage you to stick it out and listen or read the whole thing.
Dan Purcell: Uhhuh.
Zach Watson: remember there was a moment we were cleaning out our basement there were a bunch of things where there was like a trash pile, a donate pile. Um, a bring up to the first floor pile. I remember at one point I, she was pretty much pointing and I was grabbing and physically moving, and there’s some, you know, not, not easy things. I’m six five in our basement and I’m ducking my head so it hurts my back. at [00:23:00] one point she was like, she was rubbing her eyes.
She was like, clearly like, tired and like kind of disoriented. Meanwhile, I’m sweating profusely. It’s the middle of summer.
Dan Purcell: uh.
Zach Watson: And there’s this moment where I was, I was kind of resentful. I was like, you’re not even doing anything. You’re just like choosing like, can, can you like stop being annoyed about this process of like,
Dan Purcell: Or can’t just see what good I’m doing here. Uhhuh.
Zach Watson: And then she’s like, do you wanna switch? And I had this moment of like, do I want to choose whether that’s a donation or trash? ’cause I have a hard time letting go of. Random wood in my basement. I love keeping my wood that I’m never gonna end up actually using.
Dan Purcell: Uhhuh.
Zach Watson: like I have, I have a couple hoarding tendencies for sure. Um, and I think I realized in that question, I was like, no, I don’t think I want to switch. Like I actually, I’m, there’s some level of enjoyment out of moving like heavy things and using my body that way. [00:24:00] it’s actually kind of painful to think about thinking and doing the emotional piece of letting go of things that are uncomfortable.
Letting go of, maybe we spent too much money on it. Maybe we put too much energy in this thing. We never ended up using it. Um, how the heck are we actually gonna find someone to give this to instead of just giving it to our local like donation center? Are they even gonna take this?
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Zach Watson: it’s gonna be hard to let go of this thing ’cause it’s like nice, but at the same time, I don’t know if they’ll be able to sell it.
Like all that decision fatigue, that like thinking,
Dan Purcell: Uhhuh
Zach Watson: actually don’t want to do that. And that was like an epiphany of like, wow, maybe cognitive labor, maybe mental load is actually harder sometimes
Dan Purcell: Uhhuh.
Zach Watson: physical, sweaty, laborious, like physical labor. Her,
Dan Purcell: So it’s like, um, we just undervalue the cognitive labor side of things, the decision making side.
Zach Watson: And I think if we were to, if we were break, into pieces when we look at our economy, right? [00:25:00] Most, a lot of blue collar work, there’s a ton of physical labor involved.
Dan Purcell: Yeah.
Zach Watson: white collar work or like people at desks, there’s a lot of clerical labor, a lot of cognitive labor. And then you go into leadership positions, entrepreneurship, customer service. Um, customer success, that’s where we’re doing a lot more emotional labor ’cause they’re pulling strings that are going to impact a lot of people. And they’re like, Hmm, do I do this and, and lay off people? Do I like, how do I manage this thing?
So as you go up the ranks, the labor gets kind of more invisible. and while we pay them really well, it’s not appreciated in a domestic setting because it, because we live in a capitalist society. So if money is brought in by things, then we value it. so one of the encouragement that I have when people are like trying to wrap their head around it is how do we compensate people that are doing this kind of labor in a corporate setting versus how do we value and compensate this labor when it’s in a domestic setting? [00:26:00] that is an in inequality that we can start wrapping our heads around.
Dan Purcell: Mm, that’s good. When I read the book Fair Play, my biggest aha was, I like to think that I’m pretty good at sharing the labor in our home. Um, I’m pretty good at collaborating with my wife. Okay. What needs to be done? And, but the thing that really stood out to me that was my aha, is I don’t value her time equally to my time because, my old thinking was,
Zach Watson: say out loud for sure.
Dan Purcell: yeah, I mean, I’m the, I’m the breadwinner. I have a busy schedule as far as appointments go and where I need to be at a certain time. My wife is a stay at home mom doesn’t have that same level of like appointment pressure that do. So I made it to think that my time is more valuable than hers. And so if there was like an minor errand to run, I’d just say you do it because I just say you do it.
Zach Watson: to it too, right?
Dan Purcell: Yeah, because, [00:27:00] my time is more valuable than yours was the underlying, assumption and, and thinking, but then I thought about it, if we were to get a divorce today, in the state of Utah, it’s, it’s like you take all your assets and it’s 50 50.
Zach Watson: Mm-hmm.
Dan Purcell: That’s just the way it is.
Right?
Zach Watson: Yep.
Dan Purcell: in other words, Any contribution she makes
Zach Watson: Mm-hmm.
Dan Purcell: the same as my contribution. If I were to take my salary divided by hour, she’s earning half of that. and that perspective really helped me see, no wait. Her time is just as valuable as mine, like she’s earning. If we’re gonna do a dollar per hour, like breakdown, she’s earning the same a dollar per hour than I am.
Because we’re shared in this, uh, life together. So, uh, that really changed my perspective, how to approach things.
Zach Watson: Yeah. And I think for some people listening to this that are still. If there’s any skepticism left around, like the value of their time. My most shared video last year was, um, what is the value of a stay at home mom [00:28:00] and effectively, if you were to take their job and break it into parts that you were to hire out
Dan Purcell: Oh yeah.
Zach Watson: of that. Um, so in the state of Massachusetts up here in the northeast, I think I had done it for like, if you had one child, which we have. it came out to about, I think it was $274,000 for a stay at home mom.
Dan Purcell: Wow,
Zach Watson: in terms like if you had to outsource every single thing, now you know, that’s, that’s, if that’s if literally
Dan Purcell: Uhhuh.
Zach Watson: Dan,
Dan Purcell: some hyperbole, perhaps a little bit in there, but Uhhuh.
Zach Watson: Yeah. And I mean, I was really thoughtful in how to make the video. I was like, how do I put the right amount of hours in the right amount of dollars per hour? must have spent like two hours on, on ai.
Dan Purcell: Research, Uhhuh,
Zach Watson: yeah, trying to figure out like where the even medium is.
Dan Purcell: Uhhuh,
Zach Watson: I knew I was gonna get both applauded and eaten alive in the
Dan Purcell: Uhhuh,
Zach Watson: by people in those industries being like, being a nanny is way more expensive. Are you nuts? That’s like half my rate.
Dan Purcell: uh.
Zach Watson: Um, and then some [00:29:00] people also saying like, they don’t get paid that much. So like I knew it was a lose lose, but at the same
Dan Purcell: huh.
Zach Watson: like bought up a really good conversation for people. ’cause I think it would be hard to find, like if, if Dan today, if for some reason you needed to swap out somebody else to do her job and for you to maintain the exact same job that you do for someone else to do that job and how much that would cost.
Dan Purcell: Yes.
Zach Watson: it would,
Dan Purcell: Yeah.
Zach Watson: be a lot.
Dan Purcell: very humbling to think that way.
Zach Watson: Yeah.
Dan Purcell: more aspect of invisible labor I wanna talk about is, so let’s say as a husband, I really wanna help my wife. And so it’s a Saturday and like, honey, you know, you’ve worked so hard. I will take over cleaning the house this morning. I’ll take over running kids to soccer.
Games and soccer practice, and you just have a day, go to the spa, like, relax. We get a massage. She’s like, really? Like, yeah, just go, it’s, it’s fine. She’s like, are you sure you can handle it? Like I can handle it. Go. She’s [00:30:00] like, okay. So she reluctantly leaves, uh, and a few hours later she returns. The house is clean, the kids are fed, and yet she’s still worried.
Maybe she’s looking at the counter and the science project that we were working on with the sun is no longer there. She’s like, where’d the science project go? Oh, uh, I, I thought we were done with it. So I moved it to the trash, like, and then to the next room, like, Hey, I had this pile over here
Zach Watson: Yeah.
Dan Purcell: Um, did you fold it and put it away? It’s like, oh, yeah, I totally did. Like, where did you put. My pink blouse that she was probably planning to wear the next day. It’s like, oh, I, I don’t know. I don’t remember where I put that. And then go on to the next room. Can you explain what’s really happening there?
Like he’s trying to help, but as a result that he’s actually made things worse than actually helped.
Zach Watson: So I’m gonna start actually with the wording of your question. [00:31:00] So you said, how can I help my wife? So my encouragement, first off, that I encourage people using the H word help is try to consider why you’re using that as the prompt.
Dan Purcell: Hmm.
Zach Watson: Typically when we’re helping somebody, we are second in command. We are, they’re the the manager, they’re the the pilot, and we’re the, the backup pilot.
We’re the first mate. So my encouragement first for if men are using some of this language is ask yourself, is there other language that can. By asking the question contextually turns us into equals rather than to her project manager. And I’m, I’m an employee almost. Um, because you wouldn’t have two co-CEOs. the co-CEO wouldn’t say, can I help you today? But like, what do you mean help me? Like, you can run the business with me? Would
Dan Purcell: All right. That’s good. Okay. What’s in the something else that would bit [00:32:00] better than,
Zach Watson: Yeah. And so,
Dan Purcell: it’s just the whole approach, I guess.
Zach Watson: Yeah. I’m gonna come back to your, to your specific question, um, but I’m gonna share a little bit about how we work on that.
So, one of the huge parts that we work on, which I think, I know you talk often about, like scheduling sex being one of the things that, that you guys look at. we have a weekly meeting in our home currently, it’s called The Boring Meeting. I’m. I’m slowly starting to phase that out. I don’t, I’m starting to not love the acronym that we created there. Um, ’cause I think it creates a, a negative connotation rather than, I, I was trying to validate, I think a lot of people find the meeting boring.
Dan Purcell: Uh
Zach Watson: and I wanted to validate that experience. effectively we’re talking about, so it’s the acronym, baseline routines, operations, relationship repair initiative, taking, nurturing, and game planning. so like this week we’re talking about meal planning. We’re talking about how our. routine kind of sucks right now, and we’re trying to improve on that and figure out what’s happening with our 4-year-old right now. Um, we talked about financial [00:33:00] planning, we talked about we are expecting twins in April.
Um, so like house management planning, getting the guest room ready for when grandparents come over to, to help us. By me running that meeting, by me bringing agenda bullets to that, and then she brings bullets. not helping her. I’m contributing to her, I’m contributing to our home. And it doesn’t feel like if I were to say, Hey, um, Saturday, I would love to, I, I scheduled this thing for you.
I would love to see you go. that doesn’t occur to me. Like, help that occurs to me is like making sure that your partner feels cared for in a way that that works for them. so I’ll, I’ll start there. And then I would say in the story that you just shared. Effectively what they’ve attempted to do is they tried taking over physical labor of the cleaning, the management of the children. They took on the mental load of all the things that they were completely aware of. So they owned conception planning execution, [00:34:00] which is a fair play acronym,
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Zach Watson: took on conception planning, execution of a handful of things, managing the kids, making sure they’re fed, um, making sure things were tidied and clean I’m trying to remember what the fair play term is. It might be a double up from chapter 11. They talk about like the fair play fails, is the laundry. You’d said like he wasn’t sure where he put the dress away, so that is. execution.
Kind of missed the conception in planning because there wasn’t a full context of handing off of that, that responsibility, that ownership science project. Um, it’s, I don’t even know if you could call that execution, but they’re executing on a different responsibility of decluttering and, and cleaning up, but didn’t own full conception planning execution of that item. So within the fair play method, I think looking at that as like a fair play fail and they tried to take on ownership or. think another word that she uses is, like a super, hero fail. Um, or they’re trying to do a bunch, but they don’t have full [00:35:00] context of why a bunch of things are that exist. And by having that weekly meeting saying, Hey, Jimmy has has a science project do on Tuesday that might be taking over a bit of the counter until Tuesday, um, saying, uh. I, we have systems, um, or at least we’ve had systems that are a little broken right now. ’cause we moved a couple months ago. but around laundry historically, there have been times where I’ve tried to own it. hasn’t loved that, and she actually doesn’t mind owning laundry. have been moments where she’s sick of folding and so we’ve handed off folding to me,
Dan Purcell: Uh,
Zach Watson: um, and or like. There have been moments where I’m, I’m double checking. Like, Hey, I’m, this is where this goes. This is where this goes. Right? And every once in a while if there were moments of like, Hey, I, it feels like you moved some things around the drawers here. Am I getting this right? And so I’m getting back up to speed with how she wants to have things. So.
Dan Purcell: Uh,
Zach Watson: Having those preemptive conversations rather than reactionary conversations, I think [00:36:00] are really valuable for people to feel like they’re equals in the home, feel like they’re contributing together.
Dan Purcell: uh.
Zach Watson: so that, you know, you’re not dealing with those multiple fails of a another way she would describe, you would describe it as like a CPE breakup, the
conception planning, execution, not being owned by one person.
Dan Purcell: Got it. Alright. so as we conclude our conversation today, there’s, there’s a lot that we need to understand. I liked your suggestion of having a boring meeting once, once a week or whatever the rhythm that works for your marriage.
Zach Watson: Mm-hmm.
Dan Purcell: like the idea of learning, good, proper language so you have a good handle or a way to, Now share what’s really going on in things, and also a way to see more of the things that you’re missing so that you can share that better in your relationship. Ultimately, how does this help a couple have a better intimate relationship?
Zach Watson: Yeah. I wasn’t sure if you were gonna ask that question, but I was ready to answer it. think that, um, one, having [00:37:00] the language for it helps you point to things that you couldn’t point to before. So for example. Um, a couple months ago, so as we moved into this house and it started getting cold,
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Zach Watson: we have thermostats that are non programmable.
Dan Purcell: Uh huh.
Zach Watson: Alyssa pointed out to me one cold morning, she’s like, Hey, can I just point out some invisible labor that I’ve been doing? I was like, sure, what do you got? She’s like, every morning, I don’t think you’ve noticed this at all. I changed it to 70, and then when we go to bed at night, I put it back to 60 to save electricity. Did you notice that at all? I was like, I’m like, no, I just put on like a hoodie and a jacket. If I’m cold I don’t pay attention to a thermostat. and having that language she was then able to effectively communicate in a way that I got less defensive and I was just able to be empathetic and hear, you know, it sounds like she was probably sharing that.
’cause there’s a little bit of loneliness around it for
her. Secondarily, when I’m able to be more empathetic to her in hearing something that she’s lonely about, um, then I can [00:38:00] better understand, I can also better contribute to that. So now, right, if she had, if she had at randomly some night, said to me, Hey, can you go turn the heat down downstairs to save electricity or something?
Dan Purcell: Uh.
Zach Watson: Um, and be like, yeah, sure, I can go do that. And then if it happens again another night or something, she’d be like, Hey, did you turn it down? I’d be like, no. Why would I turn it down? Sure, I’ll go turn it down. Like, I might get defensive, I
Dan Purcell: Yeah. Yeah. Uhhuh. Uhhuh.
Zach Watson: knowing that ahead of time, like can be like, oh, that’s right.
That’s something that she carries and she owns.
Dan Purcell: Yeah.
Zach Watson: the ball a handful of times and we haven’t gotten, she’s gotten a little bit annoyed at me because she’s like, I wanted you to own this. that’s some other language that we often use around can you own this rather than can you do this?
’cause that’s owning it is full conception planning execution. Can you do this as just execution?
Dan Purcell: Yes. That’s the language we use too.
Zach Watson: and I know I’ve listened to you talk about this, is that like, being physically intimate and vulnerable, like is built on trust [00:39:00] and I think empathy and like when you don’t feel emotionally safe with somebody because. You don’t feel like they empathize with you fully. It’s hard to take your clothes off in front of that.
So think that if we are looking at it from, I recognize that my partner is doing things that I don’t understand and they don’t feel fully seen and heard, and not, I don’t wanna bring this to like a transactional, like selfish trans point, but like, why would they wanna be physically intimate with me if, if I don’t, if they don’t feel heard. Um, so, you know. Making sure that they’re feeling heard in their contributions to the home, especially when they’re kind of, they’re invisible aspects. I know that our, our sex life has definitely gotten better over the years because we have the language to talk about that. I know this is probably another episode, to talk about emotions.
but one, being able to see all the invisible labor and then being able to talk about it and having emotional literacy about it, um, is, is like a secondary piece. And I [00:40:00] think step one, seeing it, understanding it, appreciating it, having empathy for it. Second is being able to talk about the emotions behind it. Um, and when I talk about those, those boring meetings, phase one is like just have them start talking about invisibility barrier, step two. some more, emotional fluency and emotional safety. Step three is really like trying to create blueprints, trying to build out routines a little bit more and implementing the fair play method.
So we talked lot about phase one and a little bit of phase three, but we didn’t talk about phase two on this episode.
Dan Purcell: Gotcha. There’s a lot more to go. Where can people go to learn more about all of this? This is fantastic. You’ve got a gift for explaining this.
Zach Watson: uh, if. you are looking for some training, a little bit of help, um, a community of people that are talking about this, I have a free school community mental load basics, can put the link in here. There are is the first two weeks of training or for free. and they’re a mirror of what exists in my mental load mastery community, [00:41:00] where about just over a hundred men that I’m working with to improve on the relationships. so if you’re looking for some of that free training, should be in there. you have a easier access to asking me questions versus if you try to send me a DM on Instagram, probably not gonna find it. and if people, you know, if they’re looking for things to potentially share with their partner, I think over on Instagram or YouTube. Um, Zach, mental Load coach, you can find me.
Dan Purcell: Awesome. Thank you.
Zach Watson: Thanks, Dan.
Outro
Dan: Thank you for listening to this episode. I hope you found it helpful and that there’s some nuggets in there that you can apply to your relationship right now to create a better, more fair share in your relationship.
We have a resource about this actually on our website. I’ll link to it in the show notes. It’s a sticky note game. You print out these sticky notes on your printer using the template we supply, and it’s a way for you and your spouse to sit down together and have conversations about how you can share the mental load together better in your relationship.
And if you’d like more help going a little bit deeper in your relationship, I invite you to work with me and my [00:42:00] team, whether it’s through our next level program or private coaching, we are here for you. Meanwhile, go share this episode with your favorite married friends and go get your marriage on
