What if your sex life is good—but you still sense there could be something more?
Sex therapist Dr. Emily Jamea kept hearing this question from couples who had overcome their sexual struggles but still longed for the passion and intensity they once felt. Her search for answers led her to study sexual flow—the experience of becoming so immersed in intimacy that distractions disappear and time seems to stand still.
In this episode, Dr. Emily shares five research-backed skills that can help couples move beyond “good enough” and experience deeper connection, greater pleasure, and sex that may be even better than the honeymoon stage.
Want help putting these ideas into practice? Get my free eight-page guide to the five steps of sexual flow here.
or
Register for one of our retreat options: Virtual Retreat or In-Person Retreat
Check out Dr. Emily Jamea’s book: The Art of Desire
Guest: Dr. Emily Jamea
Dr. Emily Jamea is an award-winning sex and relationship therapist and the USA Today best-selling author of Anatomy of Desire: Five Secrets to Create Connection and Cultivate Passion.
Emily’s TEDx Talk was selected as a TEDx “Editors Pick.” She is a sought-after keynote speaker who presents nationally and internationally to diverse audiences, including corporate leaders, professionals, and the general public. Her expertise has been featured in Oprah Magazine, CNN, USA Today, NBC, and more. She offers online workshops as part of her mission to make her knowledge accessible to everyone. Dr. Jamea is a multi-award-winning columnist for Healthy Women and was named as a 2025 Outstanding Woman in Medicine by The Arts of Healing Foundation. She posts across all the social media channels @dremilyjamea.
In her free time, Emily enjoys spending time with her husband and children, traveling as much as possible, and salsa dancing and painting when she gets the chance.
Disclaimer: The opinions and values expressed by guests on the Get Your Marriage On! podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions and values of the host. Appearance on the podcast does not imply an endorsement of the guest or their products by Get Your Marriage On or its host. While we work hard to bring you quality and valuable content, listeners are encouraged to use their own best judgment in applying the information or products discussed on this podcast.
Transcript
This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors or inaccuracies. For the most accurate and complete experience, we recommend listening to the full podcast episode.
Dan Purcell: [00:00:00] This episode is for the couple that would say s*x is actually fine most of the time. No major complaints. Things are good enough. Yet you sense there’s something more waiting for you in your s*xual relationship, but you just don’t quite know what it is yet. The standard advice is, ” Hey, good enough is good enough.
You should just be happy with what you got.” And as most s*x therapists and coaches, you know, professionals that help couples, uh, with s*xual relationships tend to work with couples in distress, meaning they’re already having lots of problems by the time they get to the therapist. A lot of the research and approaches that therapists do is they bring them from, you know, their problematic state from distress back up to baseline, and they consider that a success because, hey, you know, that’s where their work ends.
We got you from their problem state to your baseline. But what if you’re already at your baseline and you [00:01:00] just sense that there’s got to be something more? My guest today is Dr. Emily Jamea, and she’s a s*x therapist in Houston who had clients asking her for, “So what’s next now that things are good?” over and over again.
And she’d say, ” Well, you know, good enough is good,” or, “We got to this point. Th-this is… You should have good enough s*x, and that’s good enough.” But she knew deep down inside exactly what they were talking about because she sensed that same longing in her own marriage. So she did something most clinicians never do.
She ran her own research study on couples who had great s*x and then tested her findings on her clients, and then she took it to the next level. She found what actually creates more joy and what’s available to couples who used her methods. And then she published it in a book, which I read recently, called The Anatomy of Desire, and I knew I had to have her on my podcast.
In this interview, we talk about flow state, which is a positive psychology term. That’s where you just feel [00:02:00] completely lost in the moment. And, uh, Emily talks about the five themes she found in couples who reach a flow state in the bedroom. We’ll talk about why it’s sometimes hard to keep your mind from wandering during s*x.
Emily also shares a story about a couple that was stuck in the same routine for years and the very small change that resolved it. Emily also shares the exact words she suggests using when you want to tell your spouse about a desire or fantasy.
And you’ll, you’ll wanna stay to the end ’cause Dr. Emily also shares her black belt s*x tip. And as a listener, I have a free gift for you. I have an eight-page guide all about the five steps that Dr. Emily Jamea outlines in this episode. All you need to do is click on the description below, and I’ll email it to you.
It’s like your notes for this episode and how to have more flow in your s*xual relationship. Now, speaking of flow, in November, the sixth and the seventh, which is a Friday and a Saturday, my wife Emily and I are putting on a virtual retreat, which we [00:03:00] call the Next Level Lovemaking Getaway.
This is the kind where you’ll join us remotely over a Zoom webinar for a special romantic getaway from your own hotel room, vacation rental, or uh, even your own home. During the three live sessions over the two days, we’ll guide you and your spouse through a new s*xual practice that complements a lot of the principles you’re gonna hear about on this podcast today.
If you can’t join us live, no problem, you can still register and then you’ll get access to those recordings for up to 90 days after. So you can do it another weekend that fits your schedule better. Early bird registration is open now, and you’ll find the link in the show notes below or go to our website, getyourmarriageon.com, and then click Events.
Speaking of events and retreats, you are invited to join us for our in-person retreat next April. This is a four-day, four-night romantic getaway we host in beautiful surroundings. We’ll do a deep dive on all things intimacy in your marriage. [00:04:00] This will be our 10th retreat, by the way, and couples that have attended in the past say they feel renewed, inspired, and transformed by the experience.
This is the kind of retreat that is ideal for couples who say they are in an otherwise happy relationship but wish things were better when it came to s*xual and emotional intimacy. Now, we’ve sold out of every spring retreat in the past, so if you’re thinking about it, now is the time to register.
You’ll find those details, again, on our website, getyourmarriageon.com, click Events, or click the link in the show notes below.
Emily, welcome to the “Get Your Marriage On” podcast. How are you today?
Emily Jamea: Thank you so much for having me, Dan. I’m doing well. How are you?
Dan Purcell: Great. I’m so happy to have you on because I’ve, uh, I bought your book, I’ve listened to it all the way through once. I’m on my second way through. It’s a fantastic book about, uh, it’s– there’s, there’s so much written about, like, dysfunction and problems when it comes to s*xual relationships. Yours is, has a very different tone.
It’s about cultivating desire in [00:05:00] long-term relationships, and it’s just really refreshing to see that angle. Have you always been about desire and helping couples strengthen their relationship through better s*xual desire?
Emily Jamea: You know, for sure desire has been a long time thread through my work. It’s the most common yet complex issues that s*x therapists treat because it can run the gamut in terms of what’s contributing to a couple’s higher or lower desire. But treated everything. I mean, I did a lot of er0ctile dysfunction, helping women have org@sms, working through s*xual pain, you know, all those dysfunctions and, and I could help people with that, and I could help people overcome desire.
And, um, you know, I think a few years, probably like, you know, five to 10 years into doing the work, um, what I like to do with all my clients when we’re coming to a close in our therapy and as they’ve met their goals, is schedule an accountability session,
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Emily Jamea: know, maybe a month or six weeks down the line just to make sure that they’re still doing all the things that we talked [00:06:00] about and still feel like they’ve met their goals and kinda check in on any setbacks. And it was during those sessions that, you know, I would ask how things were going, and they would say something along the lines, many of them, something along the lines of, you know, “We’re feeling a lot better than we were when we first came to see you. Um, we’re having s*x more frequently. We’re feeling more connected.
Maybe the conflict is minimized, but we still want it to feel more intense. You know, we’re longing for that honeymoon state.” And I knew what they meant. Um, you know, and I started paying closer attention to the specific language that they were using to describe the s*x they wanted. You know, words like effortless.
I wanna feel lost in the moment. I want the world around me to disappear. I was like, ” Oh, about a flow state.” Um, so for your listeners who don’t know what a flow state is, it’s a decades o-old psychological term coined by [00:07:00] American Hungarian psychologist, Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi. five times fast.
Dan Purcell: to spell too.
Emily Jamea: I know, exactly. Don’t even… I won’t even try. But, um, he observed that people experienced,
Dan Purcell: No.
Emily Jamea: kind of peak life experiences or greatest joy when they were experiencing a state of flow. you know, most people can think of something that puts them into a flow state. A lot of times it’s described in the arts, like, you know, a, a musical, a band that’s kinda jamming together and playing music that isn’t planned, and they’re doing that for hours in the garage. Or, you know, in athletics when you’re, like, in the zone and, you know, the world around you disappears and it’s just you, the ball, and the net, or whatever it may be. And I was familiar with the term flow. I had, you know, studied it back in, um, my undergrad and grad school. But it wasn’t a term that I had heard or read much about as it relates to s*x.
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Emily Jamea: it became so obvious [00:08:00] that that’s exactly what my clients wanted to feel.
Dan Purcell: Uh-huh.
Emily Jamea: So I dove into the literature, and I couldn’t find a single study that looked at the relationship between flow state and great s*x. Um, I found one study on optimal s*xual experiences that used similar language. I found one study looking at couples who, like, practice BDSM and kind of looking at altered states of consciousness, but not specifically Csikszentmihalyi’s eight components of flow and s*xual satisfaction.
So I was like, wow, like, this is a huge gap in the literature. And,
Dan Purcell: Huh.
Emily Jamea: and that’s, I think, what really started me on the path of exploring that and doing research and ultimately writing the book and helping my clients
Dan Purcell: That’s good.
Emily Jamea: that feeling that they wanted.
Dan Purcell: Yeah. So tell me more what flow feels like i-in a s*xual context?
Emily Jamea: Yeah. So Csikszentmihalyi identified eight components of flow.
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Emily Jamea: we probably don’t have time to go into all [00:09:00] eight, but some of the core components that most people feel are, like, an altered perception of time. So time seems like it speeds up or slows down. It’s like you could be together for just a few minutes, but it feels like you’ve been rolling under the sheets for hours or vice versa.
Um, there is a sense of effortlessness, like everything clicks, a feeling that your body just sort of knows what to do. Um, there is a state of kind of transcendence, like a sense of merger with what you’re doing. Your ego disappears. There is no self-consciousness. It’s just you and the activity. So think of a surfer who’s at one with the wave, and I think it’s the feeling people have when they describe being lost in the kiss.
Like, there is no them versus me. It’s just the kiss and the experience. And so those are some of the feelings that I would say people most commonly describe when it comes to s*x specifically
Dan Purcell: That’s good. All right. As you’re talking, I’m reminded of a couple that came to one of our past [00:10:00] retreats, and they told me– Like, we were talking about some t*ntric s*x principles, and they’re, they’re like, “We made love for four hours.” And like, “And we didn’t know we’re capable of that, first of all. And it went by so fast.”
And just, just being in the moment and just how they just felt so, like, “We made love to every square inch of each other’s body just that whole time.” That’s
Emily Jamea: it.
Dan Purcell: oh, that’s probably what you’re talking about, this, like, flow state and whatever.
Emily Jamea: what they– Yeah, they were completely immersed in the experience, for sure.
Dan Purcell: Yeah. Well, uh, sign me up. That’s something I think a lot of our listeners want to get to. But how did you take the academic knowledge and the research into really applying it to, like, the couples in your practice?
Emily Jamea: Well, so I, I embarked on a study. Now, I am not in academia, so this, you know, it’s not very typical for us mere clinicians to do academic research. But I, you know, I consider [00:11:00] myself very evidence-based. I wanted to make sure before I applied this to my clients that, you know, I was gonna go about it the right way.
So a research study, and what I did, and this is similar to what Kleinplatz did in her study on optimal s*x, is rather than a sample size of people who had s*xual problems and seeing if this model worked, I sourced people who felt that they were having really great s*x already.
Dan Purcell: Uh-huh.
Emily Jamea: that was kinda fun ’cause people were so enthusiastic to, like, share all their secrets.
Dan Purcell: Uh-huh.
Emily Jamea: I got, I got a sample of about 100 people, and I administered a couple questionnaires. One was a flow state questionnaire. Um, a questionnaire you could apply to just about any activity. It wasn’t specific to s*x. And the other was a s*xual satisfaction questionnaire. And then I kind of looked at their scores on each and how the two measures, um, correlated and found that for sure there was a positive association, association between s*xual [00:12:00] satisfaction and flow state. So the higher their, their s*xual satisfaction scores were, the more likely they were to describe getting into a flow state, so much so that flow, being able to get into a flow state we found to have a predictive quality.
So knowing about flow, knowing how to tap into flow predicted how satisfied they were, which was really exciting to me ’cause that meant that I could teach people about flow state and potentially kinda go through, like, a backdoor approach to helping their desire in a way that other methods don’t even come close to or, or do completely differently.
So- I had that data, um, you know, the quantitative data was a huge, huge win, but of course I wanted more. So I called up my research participants who had the highest scores and had really long conversations with them about everything that they did to get into a flow state, and I wanted to understand what that was like for them. And [00:13:00] I would say it was through those conversations that these five themes emerged, which I write about in the book. Um, and then I started applying them to my clients and, like, it was great because, as I said before, most people can think of something that puts them into a flow state or has in the past. once you start approaching s*x the same way, as long as you have, like, two willing partners and people who are willing to kind of work together as a team, it’s not that hard, and it’s pretty effective. And, you know, I found that it made sense to people, I think, in a way that maybe learning about tantra doesn’t.
You know, I think especially for my clientele here in the West, it’s just, like, a bit more relatable. and you know, ultimately, I found that I was able to get them experience those feelings, the exact feelings that they really longed for, you know? And I would say, like, five years prior to that, before I embarked [00:14:00] on journey, I would kind of tell them, “You know, the honeymoon stage is something that’s transient, and it’s not meant to last forever.”
And you know, what I found through the research and after applying this model is that the quality of the s*x that they were having after applying this approach was so much better than honeymoon stage s*x, which was because… And, and this was a theme again that came up in the research. Not one of my research participants said that the honeymoon was the best.
Like, that’s all just kind of passive neurochemical s*x. This is about intention and working together and fact, it, we think it invokes, a more potent cocktail of neurochemicals even than the honeymoon stage. So
Dan Purcell: Uh-huh.
Emily Jamea: it’s, pretty juicy stuff, and people were excited about it.
Dan Purcell: That’s good. I like that ’cause it goes against the popular, like, way of thinking that, “Oh, it’ll never be as good, so, so just settle. Just learn how to be okay with suboptimal s*x, and you’ll never have it back.” And no, this is, [00:15:00] like, hard proof that there’s actual steps you can take, and if you work at it, th-there’s d-definitely increased outcomes on the other side for that, that juicy, really fun er0tic states that we
Emily Jamea: Absolutely.
Dan Purcell: We wanna feel free. You can feel
Emily Jamea: and I think that
Dan Purcell: that. Mm-hmm.
Emily Jamea: sense of feeling alive,
Dan Purcell: The eros, whatever that people call. Yeah.
Emily Jamea: It’s that er0tic energy that just charges us up and, you know, makes us feel, of course, more connected to our partner, but more connected to ourself, but also more connected to, like, something bigger, I think.
‘Cause, that transcendent feeling, I think too, a lot of people can almost feel spiritual. So it’s, it’s pretty good.
Dan Purcell: That’s good. Well, would you be willing to share for our listeners what these steps are? Let’s,
Emily Jamea: Of
Dan Purcell: see what we
Emily Jamea: the five themes were sensuality, curiosity, adaptability, vulnerability, and [00:16:00] attunement. And I can talk a little bit about each one so people have, um, kind of a little taste. So sensuality describes our ability to immerse ourselves in the sensations
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Emily Jamea: is a real struggle for a lot of people, women in particular.
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Emily Jamea: I had a dime for every, you know, client I treated, every female client who said, “I just can’t turn my mind off to focus
Dan Purcell: Right.
Emily Jamea: on the sensations in my body,” I mean, I would be rich. And it’s interesting, and I, I write about this in the book, ’cause it was such a common pervasive theme among my clients. I called up one of the first s*x therapy supervisors I had when I was a baby s*x therapist, and I called her specifically because at the time she was supervising me She had retired from the field, and so this was in, this would’ve been, like, 2009-ish, I would say. And, you know, [00:17:00] Instagram I don’t think had even come out yet. It, like, wasn’t a thing. Of course, we had smartphones, but it was not, it was not an app-driven world like it is today. And I called her, I said, ” You know, what do you remember about your clients saying things like they can’t turn off their, their mind?”
And she’s like, “Let me, like, think about that. I’m gonna spend some time thinking about that and get back to you.” And she called me a few days later and she said, “You know, I’ve been racking my brain and I don’t think people complained about that the way you’re describing.” She said, “You know, we would have people get distracted or worried about the fact that they couldn’t get an erection or they
maybe distracting thoughts about body image.” But she said, “I don’t people talking about this, like, never-ending, you know, mental to-do list that’s distracting them from s*x.” And, you know it, and I really think it speaks to the world we live in today where we are so distracted
Dan Purcell: Yes.
Emily Jamea: of the time.
Like,
Dan Purcell: Oh, yeah.
Emily Jamea: spans have diminished, and is not [00:18:00] realistic to expect to go from doing two, three things at the same time, you know, for chunks of your day, to the singular focus immersive feeling of s*x just because you decide it’s time.
Dan Purcell: Uh.
Emily Jamea: so in the sensuality chapter, I write a lot about, um, how to turn off the mind, how to reinhabit body, and how to connect with each of the five senses so that you can turn your mind off
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Emily Jamea: feel like it’s just, like, these bodies coming together in a way that’s really, you know, wonderful and pleasurable and sensational.
Dan Purcell: Yeah. And how is sensation, this, approach different than just mindfulness?
Emily Jamea: It takes it a step further. You know, I think mindfulness is a good start. Mindfulness is about, you know, noticing intrusive thoughts or feelings, responding without judgment, and then seeing if you can let them pass. [00:19:00] But it’s … It can be sort of this mental gymnastics of, like, identifying know, making a decision to pull back and get back in touch with your body and so on and so forth over and over again.
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Emily Jamea: people who are more embodied, which I would say takes it deeper, the mind’s not even a part of the equation.
Dan Purcell: Uh-huh.
Emily Jamea: they’re just these very sensual, you know, engaged beings that the mind doesn’t really factor in. Now, do you get there you decide to? No. Again, I think mindfulness is a good first step. Um, know, there are a lot of techniques you can do to quiet the mind, and it’s sort of like a muscle memory. We also don’t get into a flow state just because we snap our fingers and decide to get into a, a state of flow. So there’s actually stages of flow, and I think it’s important to talk about these specifically as it relates to sensuality ’cause it’s such a struggle for people. Um, in flow state, there are [00:20:00] four stages. The first stage is the struggle phase. It’s when, you know, the body’s actually flooded with stress hormones. So think of, you know, a surfer who is kind of in the process of paddling out or they’re doing some stretches or trying to zip up their wetsuit or whatever it is, or an artist who’s mixing their oils, or a musician who’s tuning their instruments.
Like, they’re not in a state of flow. They’re, they’re preparing, they’re getting ready because they wanna be, but they’re in that struggle phase,
Dan Purcell: Yes. Uh-huh.
Emily Jamea: Um, so you’re in that for a little while, and the same thing applies to s*x. You may have a window where you’re thinking, “I’m not gonna be able to turn off my mind,” or, “I’m not gonna get into a flow state,” or, “Am I really even in the mood tonight?”
Like, there’s just those questions are there. You’re not in your body, you’re in your head, and that’s just the struggle phase. But what happens for a lot of people they kind of decide very quickly that they’re not gonna get past it, and so they just go through the [00:21:00] motions and have this very disengaged, disconnected s*x. But if we’re patient with ourselves and we give ourselves a bit more time and space, we can move past that. Um, and the second stage is the release stage, and you start to relax and those, you know, the cortisol drops again. Those stress hormones are flooded out, and they begin to be replaced with more feel-good,
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Emily Jamea: chemicals.
And, and then the third stage is flow, and then the fourth is, um, integration where everything is integrated. But, you know, flow is the third of four stages So, you know, we have to give ourselves time to get there, um, and I think in particular as it relates to sensuality, you know, doesn’t often happen. I mean, it can, but maybe a bit less so in like a, a quickie encounter.
Like, you– in order to turn your mind off and really engage with the body, you need to give that some time.
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Emily Jamea: people on average have s*x that lasts [00:22:00] only two to eight minutes
Dan Purcell: Uh-huh. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that’s really short.
Emily Jamea: not really enough time. Imagine like going surfing for two to eight
Dan Purcell: But hey, two minutes in heaven is better than one minute in heaven, as the Flight of the Conchords sing,
you know?
Emily Jamea: you know, for the person who’s struggling to turn off their mind, you know, it’s unlikely they’ll be able to do so in such
Dan Purcell: Yeah.
Emily Jamea: period of time.
So I always remind people of that. I’m like, “Just slow down.” Like, let your partner just caress you, give you a massage or, you know, before you’re even together, like run yourself a bath, do some deep breathing. Like you’ve gotta transition in some way in most cases to get there.
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm. As you’re saying that, I’m reminded of a guest on my podcast, um, earlier this year. She talks about on days she and her husband are planning for s*x, not scheduling, but planning, and,
Emily Jamea: Aha. I can
Dan Purcell: she, yeah,
Emily Jamea: book.
Dan Purcell: she, uh, she takes the time to, uh, have a shower, uh, [00:23:00] like do– uh, get dressed. She likes to put on lingerie, but she intentionally does it in front of a full-length mirror.
She spends her time on the mirror. She says that practice really helps her get into her body, and, that’s the sensuality piece. And I like how you brought up, like, this first step of that four phases when getting into a flow state is some resistance. So, just because you feel resistant to getting towards s*x
Emily Jamea: Mm-hmm.
Dan Purcell: mean you shouldn’t get towards s*x.
It just is part of the process, and it’s something you just work through. And isn’t it part of working through some resistance? The– It is the process of getting into flow state. Almost like how they say, maybe not to this extreme, but like the, the caterpillar turning into a butterfly. When it– As it emerges, it has to really push itself through some resistance to get the fluid into its wings and whatever.
That’s this rebirth process. So we’re– You’re gonna have some resistance, and that’s, [00:24:00] that’s natural and normal, but it serves a purpose.
Emily Jamea: Yeah, I think, you know, it’s interesting. We have to, you know, kinda understand where the line is. You know, there’s a difference between spontaneous desire and, you know, feeling horny. I’m sure you’ve talked
Dan Purcell: Yeah, I’m glad you brought this up. Yes.
Emily Jamea: before. Yeah, ’cause I, I think it fits in really well here. So this like kind of I am in the mood for s*x, this libidinal kind of horny, for lack of a better word,
Dan Purcell: Yes. Uh-huh.
Emily Jamea: I’m ready. That’s spontaneous. of people, women in particular, experience desire more responsively,
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Emily Jamea: that they’re not gonna feel in the mood until s*x gets going. now what I tell people is if it’s a for sure, if you know for sure you are not in the mood and you’ve got, you know, other stuff to do or a terrible headache or it’s been the day from hell or whatever it is, like- don’t push through resistance if it’s definitely a no.
Dan Purcell: yeah, yeah.
Emily Jamea: ask yourself, and if it’s, you’re feeling kinda neutral [00:25:00] about it, like, “I’m not really in the mood, but, like,
Dan Purcell: I’m
Emily Jamea: not, like,
Dan Purcell: glad
Emily Jamea: in the mood either,” like, then that’s a window to explore. And
Dan Purcell: you brought that
Emily Jamea: you’re describing it. but I always tell people, you know, you can, you can turn a neutral into a yes.
You don’t wanna push a no into a yes ’cause then you risk having, like, obligatory s*x, which is not good for anybody.
Dan Purcell: up. Agreed a hundred percent.
Emily Jamea: Yeah. Yeah.
Dan Purcell: Great. So we’ve mastered sensuality. What’s the next?
Emily Jamea: The
Dan Purcell: Curiosity.
Emily Jamea: curiosity. Yeah, so sensuality is all about the body. I would say curiosity is what opens the mind. Um, know, one of the biggest complaints people have about s*x is that it becomes too routine. It’s boring, it’s monotonous, you know, and so someone decides to shake things up a little bit, but there’s a lot that can go wrong with that,
Dan Purcell: [00:26:00] Right.
Emily Jamea: a desire or fantasy with your partner, and they have a negative reaction, which just makes you feel horrible. Or you agree to t- try something, but it’s like too much, too fast, and you’re like, “Oh, like, I just… Let’s just go back to what feels safe.” And, you know, there’s just so much room for error when it comes to opening the door for s*xual novelty, but we can turn to flow research
Dan Purcell: Okay. Yeah.
Emily Jamea: I think learn a new approach and kind of understand the psychology of novelty. So one of Csikszentmihalyi’s eight components of flow called the challenge-skills ratio.
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Emily Jamea: if you can imagine an X-Y axis, where on the X axis you have how skilled you are at something, and on the Y axis you have how challenging activity is. There’s a sweet spot between challenge and skills.
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Emily Jamea: the [00:27:00] challenge of what you’re doing is too far above your skill set, you will feel anxious, scared, and probably not wanna do it again.
Dan Purcell: Right.
Emily Jamea: of what you’re doing is too far below your skill set,
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Emily Jamea: that’s where boredom and monotony come into play. there’s a sweet spot of only 4%.
Dan Purcell: Uh-huh.
Emily Jamea: the challenge needs to be only 4% greater than your skills for you to get into a state of flow.
Dan Purcell: That’s it. Four. That’s it. It’s only
Emily Jamea: yeah, like
Dan Purcell: tiny bit outside. Yeah.
Emily Jamea: Like, we’re talking about micro-novelty here. Like, you know, I, I wish this story had ended up in the book, but it was, like, after I had written the book and I was applying this work to one of my clients, and I was like, “Man, that’s such a good example,” but They were just kind of that, like, typical missionary s*x type couple. still in the missionary position, he, like, gently took her hands and kind of pinned them over her head.
Dan Purcell: Uh-huh.
Emily Jamea: [00:28:00] it wasn’t like a whole BDSM thing. It wasn’t like a new crazy position. There didn’t even need to be a ton of conversation around it, but it was a, a little bit of a shift in energy
Dan Purcell: Uh-huh.
Emily Jamea: zeroed her in.
Dan Purcell: And she liked it.
Emily Jamea: was all it took, and she liked it. It was like, she, you know, she’s like, “Oh, okay. Wow. Like, this is a side of my husband that, like, I haven’t seen in a really long time or ever.”
Dan Purcell: Uh-huh.
Emily Jamea: so like micro novelty or, you know, if you typically close your eyes and kinda tune your partner out, like seeing how it feels to open your eyes and hold eye contact. It’s like it doesn’t take much and you can work your way up. and so, you
Dan Purcell: Right.
Emily Jamea: is an important component of that. People tend to sustain desire if they shake things up from time to time. But, um, you know, you don’t have to dive off the deep end, and oftentimes it doesn’t take much.
It’s like subtle [00:29:00] differences that can pack a major punch and put you into flow.
Dan Purcell: That’s great. My friend Laura Brotherson says, variety and vitality go together or something like that.
Emily Jamea: Love
Dan Purcell: I totally slaughter that quote. But yeah, you need
Emily Jamea: true.
Dan Purcell: a little bit of that. And you’re right, so many couples just jump so much ahead. Now,
Emily Jamea: Mm-hmm.
Dan Purcell: curiosity is, really important to talk about because I…
Do you find that couples have a difficult time having just, just s*xual communication in general?
Emily Jamea: It’s
Dan Purcell: And yeah, how do couples work through that?
Emily Jamea: It’s… It can be scary, vulnerable. You know, you don’t know how your partner is gonna respond when you’re sharing something that probably you haven’t told anyone before.
Dan Purcell: Uh-huh.
Emily Jamea: so what I encourage couples to do… So first of all, these conversations should never happen in the
Dan Purcell: And,
Emily Jamea: of passion or in bed at all.
Dan Purcell: uh-huh.
Emily Jamea: needs to be like, you know, you’ve put the kids to bed, you’re sitting across from each other at the kitchen table, or maybe you’re out f- ideally, you’re, like, out for a walk, so maybe you don’t have to look at each [00:30:00] other. Like, we can make it really easier. In the car together. What I like people to do is say something like, “There is a desire or a fantasy
Dan Purcell: Yeah. Yes. You’re right.
Emily Jamea: and I know that you’re not gonna judge or shame me for it.”
So you’re not even, like, asking. You’re not saying, like, “Can I share it?” Like, “Will you be judgmental?” Like, you’ve already set the standard. They’re not gonna wanna disappoint you. I know.
Dan Purcell: Yeah.
Emily Jamea: Right. Like, I know you’re not gonna have a negative reaction. Um- you know, and I’d like to open up to you about it. Is now a good time?”
Right? They’re pro- they will hopefully say yes. If they say no, we have other problems to work through before we get into flow. but assuming they say yes, then you can open up to them about what that is. And what I think is really key in these conversations that so many people miss is the why. You know?
So I wanna do this thing, or I wanna express [00:31:00] myself in this way, and I think the reason is because it makes me feel X, Y, and Z, or, um, you know, whatever it is for you, so that they understand it at, at a deeper level than just this, like, thing you want to do. It’s more of a feeling you want to explore through a behavior,
Dan Purcell: Yeah.
Emily Jamea: which I think is a bit more relatable
Dan Purcell: Yeah.
Emily Jamea: and can soften it and deepen it, um, and, and honestly generate more intimacy, emotional intimacy.
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Emily Jamea: and so that’s how I typically encourage people to approach the conversation.
Dan Purcell: I like that. afraid.
Emily Jamea: you? Do you have any tricks
Dan Purcell: Yeah, I used to be afraid of sharing my s*xual fantasies with my wife because then she’d think I want to do them but, uh, like one of my non-s*xual fantasies is owning a private jet. I have a large family,
Emily Jamea: Mm-hmm.
Dan Purcell: I love to travel and, oh, how fun it’d be like, “Okay, kids, let’s get in the airplane.
Uh, I don’t know. Let’s go have dinner in [00:32:00] Kansas City.”
Emily Jamea: Yeah.
Dan Purcell: Two hours later, hour and a half later, we’re in Kansas City, have dinner, have a great time, fly home, we’re in bed that night. Like, that’d be so great. Like, that’s my fantasy. But reality would mean, uh, just, just the cost, but there’s maintenance, and then think of all the time I’d, I would need to take away from work to learn how to be a pilot, and there’s a lot of risks involved.
And, um, there’s so many unknown unknowns that, like, this is so much better in the fantasy realm,
Emily Jamea: Sure.
Dan Purcell: reality realm, right? But when my wife will participate in my fantasy with me, we both know it’s a fantasy, right? She’s like, “So where are you flying me tonight?”
Emily Jamea: Ooh, I
Dan Purcell: i-it’s– we’re, we’re playing in this realm.
It’s just really fun that we can, um,
Emily Jamea: Mm-hmm.
Dan Purcell: there are other fantasies where we do really wanna experience, and like what you said, it, it’s the meanings attached to it are things we want to really explore. And, [00:33:00] sometimes couples are in conflict where one wants it to do it in real life, the other has a difficult time with that.
Emily Jamea: Right.
Dan Purcell: I think about a parenting trick, like my kid, if they want ice cream, like right before bedtime, uh, that’s a bad idea. Like, “No. Like, nope.
Emily Jamea: Yeah.
Dan Purcell: It’s 9:30 at night. You should be in bed, and I’m not gonna give you ice cream.” And they’re like six years old, right? They don’t quite understand everything yet.
They’re trying to figure it out. But I can also give them ice cream in fantasy. It’s like, “Oh, what flavor would you like?” And I can like, you know, gesture and pantomime, like scooping it up, put it in a cone. “Here you go.” And they’ll play along with me and enjoy it. And guess what? They’re happy and go to bed.
Emily Jamea: gonna
Dan Purcell: Like what
Emily Jamea: a great
Dan Purcell: you can’t give in reality, sometimes you can give in fantasy,
Emily Jamea: Mm-hmm.
Dan Purcell: squash their curiosity instinct. It still encourages them to draw out the cur- the curious part of them, which is something we wanna keep fostering as an adult, right?
Emily Jamea: gosh,
Dan Purcell: It…
Emily Jamea: yes.
Dan Purcell: Yeah.
Emily Jamea: I think [00:34:00] that is a great idea, and yeah, I mean, just because you share something you fantasize about doesn’t always mean you wanna do it in real life,
Dan Purcell: Uh-huh.
Emily Jamea: know? And if it is something you wanna try, what… You know, again, you take baby steps. You know, you start with, like, the easiest part of the fantasy and then sort of reassess how everyone feels about it, and then decide if you wanna progress or not. you know, when it comes to trying something that maybe you’ve never considered before, isn’t a fantasy you share, know, unless it’s something that you know for sure goes against your value system or, you know, whatever it is, maybe I encourage people to give it a go a couple times before, like, making your mind up that it’s not something you like.
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Emily Jamea: you know, you just don’t know until you try.
Dan Purcell: That’s true. That’s great.
Emily Jamea: Yeah.
Dan Purcell: good. Let’s talk about, um, adaptability.
Emily Jamea: Mm-hmm.
Dan Purcell: skill.
Emily Jamea: Yes.
Dan Purcell: came up in your research with the couples with great s*x lives. [00:35:00] You’ve noticed this theme. They– They’re really adaptable.
Emily Jamea: they didn’t let obstacles slow them down too much. I mean, you know, I had a pretty wide demographic. I had people in pretty much every age bracket up to, like, 85 or something,
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Emily Jamea: and, you know, things happen in life that can throw us off our game, and you have to decide you’re gonna sit out on the bench because of that thing or find a way to get back in the game.
And these people, valued intimacy enough to navigate, you know, some of the, the setbacks or obstacles or whatever it was that threatened their connection and found each other again, and maybe in a new way, and sometimes in a more exciting way than what they had anticipated. It, it sort of goes in hand in hand a bit with curiosity.
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Emily Jamea: you know, it, it takes courage, I think, to, navigate. I, I interviewed, a woman, [00:36:00] Samantha Harris, on my podcast back when I had it. She used to be a host at E! News had… was diagnosed with breast cancer at a pretty young age and had two little kids, and I think she ended up having to get, like, a double mastectomy.
It was such a, a beautiful episode, but she just talked at length about, you
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Emily Jamea: the impact that it had on intimacy and how she and her husband worked together as a team to navigate that huge setback. ‘Cause, you know, there’s, of course, the, the medical limitations that come into play when going through that and treating cancer.
But, you know, for her it was also the emotional, you know, her feelings, about her body and femininity and being a woman and all of that stuff that she had to come to grips with and the, you know, difference in sensation and, like, how that was something that was always really important to her were her breasts, and that wasn’t available anymore, and discovering new [00:37:00] erogenous zones and how they worked together to navigate that in a way that led them to better s*x than they had before the breast cancer.
So, like, where there’s a will, there’s a way, you
Dan Purcell: Yeah.
Emily Jamea: are going to happen and, know, I I’ve had so many clients over the years who come in for things like ED or, you know, whatever it may be, and it’s like they just completely stop having s*x the minute there’s an issue with the erection.
And I’m like, “God,” like, there’s a whole body. Like, great s*x does not require a hard penis every single time.
Dan Purcell: Uh-huh.
Emily Jamea: the anxiety, the anticipatory anxiety that they build up about might happen again or that everything hinges on a perfect erection, you know, just paralyzes them. And so, adaptability is, you know, so to speak, l- learning to go with the flow and, not let this stuff completely derail you.
Because when you’re in a long-term partnership, I mean, stuff is gonna come up.
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. [00:38:00] Yeah. That is so good. as you’re talking, I’m thinking about, uh, maybe it’s my age, but there’s a lot of talk about perimenopause and menopause and how couples are experiencing big shifts in their s*x lives. They can’t rely on hormones to provide s*xual desire anymore, and they feel at a loss.
And, yes, there’s medical interventions that can help. I think we’re– we have that day and age where some people, hormone replacement therapy might be the best option for them.
Emily Jamea: Right.
Dan Purcell: But I… There’s a story of a couple where, you know, she was just really sad that she just doesn’t have it anymore. She just–
Emily Jamea: Right.
Dan Purcell: like
Emily Jamea: feel like
Dan Purcell: she’s complaining to her husband, “Yeah, I don’t feel like myself.
What, what does this mean for us?” Like,
Emily Jamea: Yeah.
Dan Purcell: does this mean for you?” And just really besides herself on this. And he put his arm around her and hold her tight and says, “Look, we love each other. We’ll figure it out. Like, we’ll get through it.” And immediately her s*xual desire, whoop,
Emily Jamea: such
Dan Purcell: came
Emily Jamea: [00:39:00] great anecdote, and that’s exactly what I’m talking
Dan Purcell: back.
Emily Jamea: we are in this together.
Dan Purcell: Uh-huh.
Emily Jamea: think, you know, people think of their s*x life as, like, either a, you know, a him or a her problem or whatever the configuration is, and I’m like, “No,” like a relational
Dan Purcell: Right.
Emily Jamea: issue or non-issue depending on how you approach it.
Like, it is not about you versus them or his needs versus her needs. Like we are t- s- s*x is something you’re on the same team, like you’re sharing together. You are players on the same team, and you navigate it, you know, hand in hand.
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That’s good. Good, good.
Emily Jamea: Yeah.
Dan Purcell: All right. Well, we are nearing the end of our time together. Let’s finish off. Tell me about the power of vulnerability. Let’s talk about that, and then we’ll leave it to the listener to get your book to get
Emily Jamea: Sure.
Dan Purcell: the last, the last chapter.
Emily Jamea: Yeah. So vulnerability is all about the emotional elements of s*x,
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Emily Jamea: think so much is focused on the body. It’s like [00:40:00] each of these five components. We’ve talked about body, we’ve talked about mind. A- adaptability I think of as like the
Dan Purcell: The spirit. Yeah. Yeah.
Emily Jamea: Yeah. And vulnerability is, um, I guess is…
Thank you. The spirit. Vulnerability is the heart. Um, you know, s*x is so much more than a juxtaposition of body parts.
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Emily Jamea: it is an emotional, relational experience, and learning to tap into that adds, you know, such a deeper, more intense layer to the experience. It’s like, you know, people who bounce around from casual s*x encounter to casual s*x encounter, like it can be kind of fun, but, like, you’re not gonna sustain the high that you would if you can find someone and have a deeper emotional connection with them.
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Emily Jamea: you know, I think when we partner up with someone and we, you know, go through life together and there are more [00:41:00] shared experiences under the belt, like it, it can really deepen the experience in a way- I, I would say that, like, intimacy breeds intensity in a way that people underestimate. You know? I think people think of intensity, again, as only happening in the honeymoon stage when everything is new and you’re getting to know each other, and like that’s intense,
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Emily Jamea: but not in the same way this like still waters run deep kind of intensity is when there’s a really close emotional bond.
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Emily Jamea: and that’s what the vulnerability chapter is all about
Dan Purcell: That’s very good.
Emily Jamea: And, um, it’s in that chapter that, you know, I explore attachment science a little bit, and it’s… As it– we tie it back to flow, it’s where I explore the element of, surrender and control. So, you know, a lot of people, again, women more likely than men, will say, “I just can’t let go.
I can’t surrender to
Dan Purcell: Yes.
Emily Jamea: There is, there’s an inhibition there. And [00:42:00] there’s a paradox, and, and flow research writes about this, that the only way you can surrender is if you also feel in control.
Dan Purcell: Yeah.
Emily Jamea: relationships, the only way you’re gonna have a sense of control is if there’s a secure attachment.
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Emily Jamea: can’t let go and put hands up on a rollercoaster unless you trust that you’re securely attached to the ride.
Dan Purcell: Uh-huh.
Emily Jamea: and the same principle applies to s*x. I think, you know, a lotta couples, underestimate the power of sharing their, you know, deeper emotions, and s*x can be an opportunity to explore feelings.
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Emily Jamea: Um, you know, sometimes I’ll encourage couples not to lead with the new thing they wanna do, but the new feeling they wanna have.
Dan Purcell: Uh-huh.
Emily Jamea: that’s what we kind of get into in the vulnerability chapter. It’s a
Dan Purcell: That’s good. Now, you’re a skier, or at least a part-time skier.
Emily Jamea: every now and then. If I lived in Utah like you, I think it would be more often,
Dan Purcell: Yeah.
Emily Jamea: [00:43:00] limited opportunity here in Houston.
Dan Purcell: I bet. how does learning to ski kind of relate to this ability to be more vulnerable?
Emily Jamea: Yeah, I use that as an analogy in, in this chapter. You know, it’s like I always like to challenge myself on a black, you know, just to see if I can still do it and just from point A to point B. But I’m not in a flow state because I can’t surrender to the mountain becau- And it also kind of ties back to challenged skills a little bit.
Like, the challenge is a little too far above my skill set.
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Emily Jamea: I feel overly in control
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Emily Jamea: or risk feeling out of control. There’s not a balance of control. Like, I am pizza wedging my way down the mountain. or if I try to sort of let go and then I’m starting to feel out of control and I lo- could lose my balance.
So I, I cannot surrender most of the time on a black. you know, for me a, a true blue is a sweet spot. Like, I can, you know, I can get into a flow state. [00:44:00] It’s just me and the sound of my skis cutting the snow because I feel in control. I’ve got the skills. I know what I’m doing. you know, there’s just the right amount of challenge, and I can tap into that flow state and surrender to the experience and have that sense of merger, like it’s just me and the slope.
Uh, like all the stuff when it comes to flow. And so I think approaching s*x, with some of those same principles in mind can help people get over the edge in a, the way they want.
Dan Purcell: I like that. Does it help them with vulnerability too? Because, true vulnerability, like in the Brene Brown definition of it, is actually strength. It’s not like a vulnerable weakness.
It, it
Emily Jamea: no.
Dan Purcell: a certain amount of strength and self-trust,
um, you know, trusting, kinda like in skiing. I can trust I can get down here without injuring myself.
I can really give into this experience. It’s not beyond my level of ability, and it’s this, uh, it’s this strength that we have with those [00:45:00] around us. We give up our perfectionistic ideas. We really move into more of a, “No, I can trust you with my feelings.
Emily Jamea: Right.
Dan Purcell: tell you what I think. I’ll tell you about my airplane fantasy.”
Just kidding. Whatever it is, right? And
Emily Jamea: It, it’s the secure attachment, which, you know, allows us to settle in and then feel enjoyment and pleasure,
Dan Purcell: yeah.
Emily Jamea: And that can be hard to do if there’s, there are things that are causing feelings of insecurity or you’re hiding parts of yourself and, you know.
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm. Emily, I feel like we just scratched the surface just a
Emily Jamea: I know.
Dan Purcell: tiny bit. There’s so much more we can go. I love the conversations about this. before we tell our listeners where they can go to learn more about you and your work, I ask this, question with some of my guests, and you’re not prepared for this question, so I’m putting you on the spot here.
Emily Jamea: know.
Dan Purcell: But, uh, let’s say people master what you’re talking about. They get really good at Sensations. They’re good at, you know, curiosity, [00:46:00] adaptability, vulnerability, attunement. What would you say is a black belt s*x tip? Just one idea that’d take things from where they are, if they’re good, just to that next level.
Emily Jamea: I, I know we don’t have time to get into it today, but I think that’s what the attunement chapter is all about. Like, it is a b- it’s kind of the gestalt of everything else.
Dan Purcell: Uh-huh.
Emily Jamea: you know, it’s… There’s so much of an emphasis on being a good communicator, but, like, amateur hour. Like, if we’re talking black belt
Dan Purcell: Yes.
Emily Jamea: master, it’s like learning to tune into the non-verbal cues and subtle shifts in energy.
Dan Purcell: Uh-huh.
Emily Jamea: an analogy of a pair of ballroom dancers. Like,
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Emily Jamea: I… And, and it calls on sensuality, and it calls on curiosity, and it calls on all of the other elements. I think that’s where they all combine, to kind of evoke this feeling of transcendence, which is what so many people wanna have. Like, that [00:47:00] to me is the black belt of all of it.
Dan Purcell: That’s so good. And even as you’re talking, your shoulders are shaking. You’re like dancing. Right? Yeah, I
Emily Jamea: Yeah. Exactly. I’m, uh, I’m feeling it in my body,
Dan Purcell: It’s like those dancers. They, they know each other well. They know what the moves are, and
Emily Jamea: Yep.
Dan Purcell: they’re together. They can move as one. It’s this attuned, deep attunement. That
Emily Jamea: that feeling
Dan Purcell: that is black belt, for sure.
Great.
Emily Jamea: and not unattainable. Like,
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Emily Jamea: just takes practice, like any pair of ballroom dancers. Like, there’s a lot of practice, there’s missteps, but, you know, eventually it flows. And I think anyone… Again, if you have a willing partner, you can do that too.
Dan Purcell: That’s good. Where can people go to learn more about your work?
Emily Jamea: Um,
so I have a lot of material on my website, a lot of free material, so you can go to emilyjamia.com and check that out. I’m on social media @dremilyjamia. That’s D-R Emily Jamia. have a TED Talk coming out [00:48:00] soon, so keep an eye out for that. I’m pretty accessible, so, you know, anyone out there, ping me and I’ll do my best to respond.
Dan Purcell: Sounds good. Well, thank you very much.
Emily Jamea: The… My pleasure. Thank you for having me.
Dan Purcell: All
Outro
Dan – May 2025: My dear friend, thank you for listening. Be sure to check out the free eight-page guide that goes along with this podcast episode. You can find it by clicking the link in the episode description below, and it includes a summary, conversation starters, and creative ideas to help you get started with having more flow in your s*xual experiences.
If you’d like something more hands-on, register for our upcoming virtual retreat, where you can spend a weekend with my wife Emily and I, as we guide you through these practices in your marriage. Now, a couple that did this virtual getaway with us in the past said it was well worth the time and the money.
They appreciated the respectful approach that we took towards s*xual topics, and their biggest surprise is that they learned a lot about each other s*xually, even though they’ve been married for over thirty years. And that’s the kind of experience I think you can have too [00:49:00] at our virtual getaway.
There’s also that in-person retreat next April. It’s our annual Get Your Marriage On Retreat, and this is the four-day, four-night of romance, fun, transformative teaching, coaching, and discovery in a beautiful setting. You don’t want to miss that. All right. I will see you next week. Now, go get your marriage on.
