Do you ever feel more like roommates than lovers in your marriage?
Maybe you get along well, communicate pretty well, and make a great team when it comes to managing kids, work, and everyday life. But when it comes to romance and sex, something feels like it’s missing.
I hear this from couples all the time.
So I asked my guest, sex therapist Shadeen Francis, what couples can do when they’ve fallen into roommate mode.
Her first question surprised me: “What kind of roommates are you?”
It turns out there are four different kinds of roommate dynamics, and understanding which one describes your marriage can help you figure out what’s actually getting in the way of intimacy.
Shadeen is a licensed marriage and family therapist, board-certified sex therapist, and incoming president of AASECT. She brings some really interesting insights into what makes sexual desire grow—or disappear—in long-term relationships.
In this episode, we talk about:
- The four types of roommate marriages and why they need different solutions
- Why resentment and an unequal mental load can make sexual desire difficult
- Why a sex therapist spends so much time talking about dishes and laundry!
- How to bring back positive anticipation and excitement in your marriage
- Why being willing to be influenced by your spouse is so important for great sex
- Shadeen’s who, what, where, when, why, and how framework for rebuilding sexual desire
- How to create a sex life that’s mutually enjoyable instead of focusing only on performance or orgasms
One of my favorite parts of this conversation was our discussion about being open to our spouse’s influence. I shared how, earlier in my own marriage, I was so convinced that my approach to sex was right that I wasn’t really making room for my wife’s experience.
I’ve learned that you don’t compromise your way to a better sex life. You collaborate your way.
If you and your spouse have been feeling more like roommates than lovers, I think you’ll get a lot out of this conversation.
Connect with Shadeen Francis:
Website: https://shadeenfrancis.com
Ready to build a more connected, passionate marriage?
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Disclaimer: The opinions and values expressed by guests on the Get Your Marriage On! podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions and values of the host. Appearance on the podcast does not imply an endorsement of the guest or their products by Get Your Marriage On or its host. While we work hard to bring you quality and valuable content, listeners are encouraged to use their own best judgment in applying the information or products discussed on this podcast.
Guest: Shadeen Francis
Shadeen Francis is a licensed marriage and family therapist and board-certified sex therapist who specializes in relationships, emotional wellness, and sexual health. Her work has been featured on ABC, NBC, and CBS, and she has collaborated with organizations and brands to make conversations about sex and relationships more accessible. Known for her warmth and humor, Shadeen is passionate about helping people build deeper connections and live lives full of peace and pleasure.
Disclaimer: The opinions and values expressed by guests on the Get Your Marriage On! podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions and values of the host. Appearance on the podcast does not imply an endorsement of the guest or their products by Get Your Marriage On or its host. While we work hard to bring you quality and valuable content, listeners are encouraged to use their own best judgment in applying the information or products discussed on this podcast.
Transcript
This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors or inaccuracies. For the most accurate and complete experience, we recommend listening to the full podcast episode.
[00:00:00]
Shadeen Francis: the first question that I’m often inclined to ask is: what kind of roommates?
Because not all roommate situations are the same, are we the kind of roommates that are of amicable strangers?
Are we friends? Are we collaborators or teammates? Are we the kind of roommates that are actually like caregiver and care receiver kind of dynamic?
Feeling more like roommates than lovers is a common complaint I hear when I work with couples. So if you’ve ever felt that way in your marriage, this episode is for you. [00:01:00] My biggest takeaway from my guest today is that roommate mode isn’t one single problem. Once you know which kind of roommates you’ve become, you can actually find your way back to being lovers.
Dan Purcell: My guest today is Shadeen Francis. She’s a licensed marriage and family therapist and a board-certified s*x therapist. In fact, she’s the incoming president of AASECT, A-A-S-E-C-T. That’s the nonprofit organization in the country that certifies s*x therapists. This means a lot of people who train and certify to be s*x therapists trust her to lead them.
In this interview, Shadeen walks us through her framework for rebuilding s*xual desire. It’s the who, what, where, when, why, and the how framework, and it’s fantastic. You’ll also hear why she says many couples have lost their positive anticipation and the little everyday thing women look forward to that shows how it works.
You’ll hear the four kinds of roommates couples can [00:02:00] become and the one wives name the most often. You’ll hear the two things men bring into her office over and over again, You’ll hear why a s*x therapist spends so much time talking about something you would never expect: dishes and laundry.
If you find this episode helpful and you want help getting out of roommate mode in your relationship, you can contact me and my team. we’re marriage coaches, and this is something we can help you and your spouse work through in your marriage. if you want a more immersive, upbeat, supportive experience, check out our upcoming marriage retreat.
It’s in April of 2027 in Southern Utah. Beautiful surroundings, it’s luxurious, it’s romantic, and we do a deep dive on all things intimacy, for four days and four nights. For more details for the retreat, go to getyourmarriageon.com, click Events, and then you’ll find all the details about our upcoming couples retreat right there
Dan: shadeen, what an honor it is to have you on the Get Your Marriage On [00:03:00] podcast today. How are you?
I’m doing really well. Thank you for having me
So you are a licensed marriage and family psychotherapist. You’re a board-certified s*x therapist. You’re also elected t- as the incoming president for AASECT. That’s the premier certification body for s*x therapists. What an honor. This means you really know your stuff, and at least people put a lot of trust in you, too.
You’re a very trustworthy person, and I look up to you for that, too, and I’m just honored to have you here today.
Shadeen Francis: Thank you so much for having me. You know, I, I both feel the and celebration of, like, getting to do this work, and I feel the realities of the, the gravity of what we’re all called to do,
Dan: Mm-hmm.
Shadeen Francis: I’m a volunteer. The entire board is volunteers, and I think so many of us, yeah, just wanna take our enthusiasm and love for this work, into a space that allows us to come together and, and do the best that we can for the field.
So
Dan: That is so good
Shadeen Francis: [00:04:00] having me in this conversation as part of that.
Dan: So I gotta ask, s*x therapist is kind of s*xy line of work. Ever been put in a situation where someone asks, “What do you do for work?” And you have to make that decision, “Do I be honest or not?” And then what happened?
Shadeen Francis: That’s a, that is a very common
Dan: Uh-huh.
Shadeen Francis: in
Dan: I can imagine.
Shadeen Francis: sort of judging, okay,
Dan: Uh-huh
Shadeen Francis: the right space? You know, we’re in the grocery store, we’re in, you know, a religious ceremony, we’re
Dan: Right
Shadeen Francis: birthday, children’s birthday party. How much do I wanna say about what I do? And like, yes, s*x is a, is a significant part of my work.
It’s not all of my work. Um, but I can remember a really early part of my career, where I realized like, oh, this is a decision I’m actually going to have to make. Uh, I was in an Uber,
and you know, so we’re, strike up a conversation. I’m a friendly gal, and so my driver goes like, “Oh, so what do you, what do you do for work?”
And so I say, “I am a s*x [00:05:00] therapist.” And immediately she, I mean, while driving,
Dan: Aha.
Shadeen Francis: around and looks at me,
Dan: Aha
Shadeen Francis: drop, eyes big. And I’m like, oh, what did I open up here?
Dan: Uh-huh.
Shadeen Francis: says, ” Oh my goodness, this is such good news.” She’s like, “I need to show you something.” She pulls out her phone, one hand on the wheel, one hand scrolling through her phone,
Dan: Aha
Shadeen Francis: passes me her phone, and it is a picture of her labia.
Dan: Huh?
Shadeen Francis: And what she is wanting is to talk about a medical concern that she has going on,
Dan: Aha
Shadeen Francis: and I’m on the way to a meeting
Dan: Uh-huh
Shadeen Francis: actually not the context of what I do. For anyone who’s unclear what s*x therapy, it is a form of psychotherapy in which we are talking about s*xual concerns. While I happen to be the kind of nerd that just also knows a lot about a lot,
Dan: Uh-huh
Shadeen Francis: are not to show pictures of your vulva in an Uber
Dan: Uh-huh.
Shadeen Francis: the way to downtown Philadelphia. Uh, so she and I did have a good laugh about it when I explained [00:06:00] more about like what the actual scope of practice, is, but that was one of the first times where I recognized like, oh, maybe there are some times where I could actually just tell folks other parts of my career and kind of ease into, ease into the s*x bit, uh, maybe on the back end of some, some communal education.
Or there are also spaces where I get the, the pearl clutch, know,
Dan: Uh-huh
Shadeen Francis: are… I mean, even for therapy, right? You say you’re a
Dan: Yeah
Shadeen Francis: in the wrong space, and everyone’s like, “I am not going to talk to you because you are going to ask me about my mom.”
Dan: You’re gonna judge me. Yeah, exactly. I
Shadeen Francis: right?
Dan: be analyzed, right.
Shadeen Francis: people often that I, I don’t do much work, uh, for free, you know? I’m not here to psychoanalyze you at the movie theater.
Dan: No.
Shadeen Francis: Yeah.
Dan: I tell people I don’t coach friends. You’re my friend. That’s good
Shadeen Francis: I’m very clear, you know, whatever therapeutic relationship we might have, you will get all the paperwork up [00:07:00] front,
Dan: Yeah.
Shadeen Francis: you don’t have to worry about me.
Dan: That’s great. So I get a lot of questions, and there’s this theme of questions I think you’d be great to answer, and it is this. It’s usually written by a husband, sometimes the wife too, but it generally is, “Hey, Dan, we have a pretty good marriage. Uh, we’ve been married 10 years. We have kids. My wife and I, we communicate well.
We go on dates, but s*x has kind of become kind of boring, and oftentimes we feel more like roommates than lovers. Like, we navigate life well, we function well as a couple, and it’s just not the same. My wife is distracted it feels like, or I’m busy too, and I really want more s*x in our relationship. How can I ch- help my wife get more excited about s*x?”
That’s usually kind of like the l- the way they’re phrasing the question
Shadeen Francis: Yeah, this comes up a lot. This is like a recurring [00:08:00] conversation, there are some things that are always really interesting to me within it, and things that I tend to be curious about.
So for anyone who’s listening and this mirrors either your own, like, inside experience or maybe this is feedback that you’ve received from a, a partner or partners, the first question that I’m often inclined to ask is: what kind of roommates?
Dan: Okay
Shadeen Francis: what, what kind of roommates are you? And it, and it is sort of a…
It feels like a sidestep kind of question, but I
Dan: Uh-huh.
Shadeen Francis: an understanding of what the actual, like, felt dynamic is
Dan: Ah. Uh-huh.
Shadeen Francis: Um, because not all roommate situations are the same, for any of us who have lived with anyone. And I’m hearing this person describe that we get along pretty well, but are we the kind of roommates that are of amicable strangers?
Dan: Mm-hmm.
Shadeen Francis: Right? So we have our sort of lives, but we are kind of ships passing in the night. And when we connect, you know, we’re cool. Uh,
Dan: But at surface level? [00:09:00] Uh-huh. Uh-huh
Shadeen Francis: don’t, we don’t have a ton of points of connection or engagement. Um, are we the kinds of roommates that are friends? So maybe we do spend a lot of time hanging out, sharing. Maybe we have shared interests, shared hobbies, shared experiences. It’s jovial. Things feel light and fun. Um, are we the sort of roommates that are like collaborators or teammates? So kind of like a collegial, we’re colleague kind of roommates. Um, so we function really well together, and that’s at the center of our exchange.
We’re doing lots of work and trading off tasks. Um, then this one doesn’t tend to come up as often for men, but almost always for women, right? Are we the kind of roommates that are actually like caregiver and care receiver kind of dynamic?
Dan: Gotcha. It’s almost like paternal or [00:10:00] maternalistic in their marriage dynamic.
Shadeen Francis: Mm-hmm. And we actually see in the research that when folks are feeling like roommates, overwhelmingly, the majority of the time, if this is a heterosexual relationship,
Dan: Uh-huh.
Shadeen Francis: is feeling like a caretaker
Dan: Yes.
Shadeen Francis: than a friend.
Dan: Yes
Shadeen Francis: And that’s not a judgment or an indictment on men in heterosexual pairings, although it is something for us to reflect on
Dan: Mm-hmm
Shadeen Francis: there is a pattern around this. But there is a way in which we can both feel like we are doing a lot to sustain our relationship, and we might not be working in the same way with the same effort on the same parts of the relationship,
Dan: Right.
Shadeen Francis: right?
Dan: Yeah
Shadeen Francis: so seeing the difference between folks who are ships passing in the night, Folks who are friends, but it doesn’t feel romantic,[00:11:00]
Dan: Mm-hmm.
Shadeen Francis: who are task-oriented and focused on getting things done, and folks where w- in relationships where one person feels like they are doing so much more to sustain and maintain
Dan: Mm-hmm.
Shadeen Francis: the day-to-day structure of their relationships,
Dan: Uh-huh
Shadeen Francis: really curious that. I get very, very curious about that ’cause even though I… We will talk about this in sort of an umbrella term,
Dan: Mm-hmm.
Shadeen Francis: you might find you might want or need to lean in to certain elements of this more or less depending on what you’ve got going on to start
Dan: Gotcha. By the latter, do you mean like sharing the mental load? That’s a very popular buzz phrase we hear a lot lately. It’s that invisible labor that we all carry
Shadeen Francis: yes, the invi- the invisible labor, right? That when we have these dynamics of roommates, first of all, people are often not talking about it,
Dan: Right. ‘Cause they don’t have the language for it sometimes [00:12:00] too
Shadeen Francis: and if we are in a dynamic that is feeling really unbalanced around what labor is being contributed to help this household run, when we start to feel disconnected from each other, it is usually because we feel like our work is not just invisibilized, but underappreciated and taken for granted. And this is really fertile soil for resentment to build.
Dan: Yeah.
Shadeen Francis: what’s not s*xy, friends?
Dan: Resentment.
Shadeen Francis: Resentment. Resentment. If I feel like you don’t respect me and/or if I feel like I am crossing my own boundaries or on the wrong side of my own willingness or wanting-ness to do the things I am doing, that is not a place that s*x is going to come out from easily, certainly not good s*x,
Dan: Right.
Shadeen Francis: right?
Dan: not that playful energy at all
Shadeen Francis: It is n- it is not playful. And so all of these contexts would benefit from some [00:13:00] more play But in order to play, many of us actually have to know we’re done working.
Dan: Okay, great
Shadeen Francis: Right? So we actually do need to have a good agreement around how we divide up labor. So for folks who are in this container around we feel like caretakers, you know, caretaker and care receiver, sometimes if I’m gonna press it really concretely, the language that I hear specifically from women is that they feel like a parent. Whether or not they also have kids, a lot of folks will feel like, “I feel like his mom.”
Dan: And sometimes you hear wives joke too, “Oh, I have five kids or three kids
Shadeen Francis: they,
Dan: and, and my husband’s one of them.” Right, exactly. Uh-huh. Right.
Shadeen Francis: correct reasons,
Dan: And everyone laughs, “Ha ha ha, that’s funny.” But if that’s really how you view it…
Shadeen Francis: and it, happens more often than people often recognize
We are, are [00:14:00] not actually turned on by doing, you know, labor that feels unfair,
Dan: Mm-hmm.
Shadeen Francis: feels more than ours, right? It isn’t, it isn’t generally hot to people to feel taken for granted, right? And so having real conversations about what is our exchange of labor in our relationship, and that doesn’t just have to be about dishes and laundry. Although the amount of time as, as a s*x therapist I spend talking about dishes and laundry. I get to, I get to make the joke with people very often, like, d- dishes are bad for you you know, because they come up often enough as, like, part of the clinical concern. Dishes and laundry are bad for your relationship. I’m joking, but only, only somewhat. right? But the thing that they can learn really well from the kinds of relationships that are the roommates that we’re really task-oriented, is that task-oriented people have come up with systems and exchanges of labor that even if our relationship still doesn’t feel very s*xual, the thing that would [00:15:00] help us that we could learn from you is how did you find ways of distributing the tasks make life happen in a way that feels like it honors your strengths or your energy? And so sometimes it’s about getting more help. Sometimes it’s about taking tasks off the table.
Dan: Uh-huh
Shadeen Francis: Sometimes it’s about lowering some of your standards, right? We have, like, the aspirational way
Dan: Yes
Shadeen Francis: and then the actual way of living we can maintain.
Dan: Mm-hmm.
Shadeen Francis: might want to be the sort of family that, like, never has dishes in the sink or doesn’t go to bed with dishes, and that just might mean that, like, dishes get done at least every other day.
Dan: Yes. Yeah, yeah
Shadeen Francis: it might mean that we use more, like, paper plates.
Dan: Uh-huh.
Shadeen Francis: right? Like, you … Some- sometimes we actually have to make concessions for what is the reality of what we have available here,
Dan: I like what you’re saying. It’s like, can you be adaptable [00:16:00] here?
Shadeen Francis: Yeah.
Dan: kind of with reality
Shadeen Francis: routines and systems if we can’t be flexible.
Dan: Right
Shadeen Francis: so one of the key skills around great s*x is a willingness to be influenced,
Dan: Mm-hmm.
Shadeen Francis: right?
So we could talk about flexibility, we could talk about adaptability. I collapse some of that sort of fluidity into, like, how open are you to being influenced, Can I receive what it is that you might want and need and be open to changing something in or around myself? And that doesn’t mean I have to just do what you want.
It’s mutual. mutual. Can I consider your opinion, can I consider your needs, can I consider your suggestions as equally valid as my own? Equally valid. So I’m not right. My truth is not more true, Yes, there is my way, [00:17:00] but the alternative is not the highway, right?
Dan: Uh-huh
Shadeen Francis: can we co-create this thing together?
Dan: Can you share an experience from your own life, maybe someone you know, maybe you’ve worked with, of where you pushed yourself to be more open to influence? And what, how, how it was before, and then what changed because you pushed yourself to be more open to another’s influence?
Shadeen Francis: Absolutely. So I am very much a person who has a way. Whoop, whoop, whoop.
Dan: Uh-huh.
Shadeen Francis: is the order. Do, do, do, do.
Dan: Uh-huh.
Shadeen Francis: this goes, and you do this before the this, and you do this after the this. Um, I have been with my spouse for 15 years.
Dan: Mm-hmm
Shadeen Francis: Um, so we also have the benefit of, like, becoming, um, adults, you know, together.
You know, we were young adults when we, when we got together. but over the course of our relationship, particularly the point in time at which we moved in together, uh,
Dan: Aha
Shadeen Francis: any n- I could pick [00:18:00] any
Dan: Any dimension. Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Shadeen Francis: especially because the, the, the home that we’re in, I lived in it first. and you know, little considerations around, like, why do you put the remote there?
Dan: Uh-huh.
Shadeen Francis: do you put the lotion there?
Dan: Uh-huh.
Shadeen Francis: You know, I’m still, I, I’m still guilty of reorganizing the fridge.
Dan: Uh-huh.
Shadeen Francis: There, there are just places that I want the things
Dan: Well, you gotta draw a line somewhere, uh-huh
Shadeen Francis: I, I do not make him responsible for trying to understand my brain around where it is.
This is just the place that I need it. But the pla- the, the, the growth that I had to do from also a, a family that has lots of sort of systems is really acknowledging that there actually isn’t a correct way, even though everything inside me wants to believe that the way that works for me is the right way to do it, That in order to share a life and to share mutual pleasure with another person, that I also have to acknowledge that the correct way is the way that both of us can feel [00:19:00] honored in,
Dan: Mm-hmm.
Shadeen Francis: right? The correct way meets us both. It is not about either of us adapting to fit the other person. It’s each of us becoming a version of ourself that honors the truth of who I am
Dan: Mm-hmm.
Shadeen Francis: and also who I want to be for us,
Dan: Yes.
Shadeen Francis: right?
Dan: Yeah, it’s, it’s like a balance there.
Shadeen Francis: You know, I, I think very much, about the work of a person named Prentice Hemphill,
Dan: Okay
Shadeen Francis: talks about boundaries in this way. talks about, I’m paraphrasing, but boundaries as the space to which I can stay connected to myself and to others,
Dan: Yes.
Shadeen Francis: right?
Dan: yeah
Shadeen Francis: boundary allows me to be present to me and to you,
Dan: Right
Shadeen Francis: good s*x also asks that
Dan: Aha
Shadeen Francis: For our folks who are feeling like we are roommates, right, that often we are locked into either [00:20:00] hyper-fixating on our own felt experience and I don’t have good clarity on what’s happening for you,
Dan: Mm-hmm
Shadeen Francis: be our ships passing in the night
Dan: Uh-huh
Shadeen Francis: babes. Or I might be hyper-fixated on you,
Dan: Yes
Shadeen Francis: and those are the times at which maybe I am giving more than is actually serving me.
Maybe we are leaning more into elements of the relationship that either don’t feel reciprocal or are missing something necessary for me to feel like the version of myself that I’d want to bring into this. so the question that I ask folks about, like, what kind of roommates, next place we go is what do you want? What do you want,
Dan: Mm-hmm
Shadeen Francis: and what do they want?
Dan: Right
Shadeen Francis: And seeing what is the overlap. And people are often incredibly surprised by how much overlap [00:21:00] they genuinely have
Dan: But they’re not having that conversation ’cause they,
Shadeen Francis: Cs
Dan: they don’t have the words for that yet. Right.
Shadeen Francis: And then the next place, if we’re going to have a challenge executing it, because for most of this, once we present it, are really equipped of- to navigate so much of this themselves,
Dan: Aha
Shadeen Francis: I don’t claim to be the expert on anybody’s life. I just happen to know the things that I know very well,
Dan: Uh-huh
Shadeen Francis: and I continue to invite people to use their own wisdom and skillset because people resolve stuff all the time with support,
Dan: Mm-hmm.
Shadeen Francis: So sometimes getting clear on the kind of dynamic we have helps us see really clearly, like, “Oh, here’s where we’re missing it.
Here’s the element that we could shift and change in our own dynamic, and prioritizing that would help us get to s*x easier,” When that is still like, “Hmm, okay, we get it, but what do we do with it?” Well, then the question is, well, what do you want? Right? What do you wanna do with it? [00:22:00] What do you wanna do about it?
Dan: Y-yeah
Shadeen Francis: Where do you wanna go? And if, if that on its own doesn’t help people say like, “Oh, okay, we know the conversations we have, we know what we wanna try,” it is usually a how issue at that point,
Dan: Is it how because they’ve just developed habits and they’re hard to break? Or is it more like, they’re still kind of holding on to resentments or maybe, for lack of another word, kind of their pride? Like I, if I give this up, that means I’m admitting that I was wrong and I don’t wanna do that. Those kinds of things?
Shadeen Francis: All of that could come up. That last bits that you were describing,
Dan: Mm-hmm.
Shadeen Francis: is a really clear context around the like we are struggling with mutual influence,
Dan: Yes
Shadeen Francis: If I’m committed to being right, if I’m committed to my pride or,
Dan: Mm-hmm.
Shadeen Francis: don’t wanna do things your way. Like, yes, you can have genuine boundaries, but if there is no flexibility at all, [00:23:00] we’ve actually created a ceiling for where this can go,
Dan: Yep, there’s a limit. Yeah. Great
Shadeen Francis: I would love to do the thing here where I introduce At its largest, it is a framework, but I just wanna give folks a peek inside my brain here,
Dan: Yeah.
Shadeen Francis: if that feels comfortable for you.
Dan: Let’s go for it.
Shadeen Francis: So when I’m working with folks in this space, we’ve gotten clear on, okay, what is existing right now?
What’s the dynamic between us that feels off?
Dan: Uh-huh
Shadeen Francis: have the conversation around, okay, here’s what each of us really want to experience here, and that’s deeper than just s*x,
Dan: Uh-huh.
Shadeen Francis: deeper than more s*x.
Dan: Uh-huh
Shadeen Francis: about the kind of connection you wanna have with, with each, each other. If we’re still feeling really stuck, what is often happening, um, can follow kind of a storyline. So any of you who grew up writing stories, any of you who love fiction, either when [00:24:00] you were young or
Dan: Uh-huh.
Shadeen Francis: is going to be our classic story arc, and this is this desire framework that I walk people through, right? In my world, desire is about embodied wanting. So let
Dan: Great
Shadeen Francis: saying that. So how do you what it is that you want?
Dan: Aha
Shadeen Francis: what I think I should want, not what I should want, not what I’m told to want. What do you genuinely want?
Dan: Where is it in the body? Yes. Uh-huh.
Shadeen Francis: Yes. And so the story arc around it starts with who, right? Who are you to want? Who are you that wants, right? And so we start exploring what are our healthy entitlements, so what do you believe you deserve, What are our limiting beliefs around what you can res- what you can receive, right? Sometimes we’re struggling because there’s part of us that quietly believes like, oh, life can’t be that good,
Dan: Yes
Shadeen Francis: shouldn’t, can’t want me that much.
Dan: [00:25:00] Uh-huh
Shadeen Francis: know? It involves questions of our self-worth.
Dan: Uh-huh
Shadeen Francis: So who are you? Who are you that wants? What are the values that you’ve internalized? What are the scripts, right? Many of us grew up in traditions that have, like, this is how that goes,
Dan: Right
Shadeen Francis: and sometimes those get in the way.
Dan: Uh-huh
Shadeen Francis: So who, right? If, if anyone’s familiar with the framework, you know where this goes next. It’s what,
Dan: Uh-huh. Yep
Shadeen Francis: what. And so we start to find inspiration, right?
And that can look any number of places. That can be stories, that can be film, any kind of film.
Dan: Uh-huh.
Shadeen Francis: own fantasy or your imagination.
Dan: Uh-huh
Shadeen Francis: The what also requires us to confront shame,
Dan: Okay. Uh-huh
Shadeen Francis: Because as we start thinking about let’s get more into what we want,
Dan: Uh-huh
Shadeen Francis: those are the places where if we’re not talking, sometimes it’s ’cause I’m ashamed or embarrassed to tell [00:26:00] you more about what I want
Dan: Yes. Which requires courage to go there ’cause it feels vulnerable. It’s, it’s the part that you’ve kind of compartmentalized or protected. So it’s like, all right, here it goes. I’m bringing it to the light, right? is it
Shadeen Francis: And this is the part, the what is the part that often reconnects people back to their senses and their emotion and
Dan: Mm-hmm. Uh-huh
Shadeen Francis: we can get, when we’re ta- talking about s*x, we can get so hyper-fixated on a very specific container that we call s*x, and often this idea of s*x culminates in intercourse,
Dan: Uh-huh.
Shadeen Francis: right?
Dan: Right
Shadeen Francis: s*x can be so much more than that because it is much more
Dan: Yes. Uh-huh
Shadeen Francis: And so in exploring the what, you know, my, my work has a, sort of a fun little tagline. For any of you who are, you know, anti m- m- profanity, [00:27:00] I, I am going to use an F word here, and it’s professional jargon for me as a s*x therapist. I sometimes will say something like, you know, “People always want to know how to f*ck, and my work is about reminding you how to feel.”
Dan: I like that. Uh-huh
Shadeen Francis: And so that, that feeling comes up very much in this what part of the story. What is it that you actually want to experience in this connection to another person?
Because most people are not like, “I so badly for my sense of self need to experience one set of genitals going inside another set of genitals.”
Dan: Yeah. Uh-huh
Shadeen Francis: know? Like, we’re, we’re not usually oriented around, like, the thing that would make me feel like the best part of myself is to have my penis enveloped in a vulva,
Dan: Yeah. Uh-huh
Shadeen Francis: something about what is happening in this exchange. I wanna feel desired. I wanna feel pursued. I want to feel big. I wanna feel small. You know, I want to have my brain shut [00:28:00] off. I
Dan: Yes
Shadeen Francis: well tonight.
Dan: Yeah. Uh-huh.
Shadeen Francis: can want whatever it is you want with no
Dan: Uh-huh.
Shadeen Francis: you know?
Dan: Uh-huh
Shadeen Francis: and so that’s the what part of the story arc.
Still with me? We’ve
Dan: Yes. Yep, the who. But before the who and the what, we had desire, like embody it first so it’s present as you do this exercise. Great.
Shadeen Francis: Mm-hmm.
Dan: As you’re talking, I’m like doing this for myself, by the way. So I’m like, okay,
Shadeen Francis: I’m
Dan: okay
Shadeen Francis: glad. At the end, I would love to just know w- what, what comes alive for you.
Dan: good
Shadeen Francis: then move into the where and the when.
Dan: Uh-huh
Shadeen Francis: Who, what, where, and when.
I do where and when together because these are our context conversations.
Dan: Great
Shadeen Francis: Sometimes we feel like roommates
Dan: Mm-hmm.
Shadeen Francis: of the context of our relationship,
Dan: Makes sense
Shadeen Francis: So, know, you’re using the example, um, my partner is always distracted. What is she distracted by?
Dan: Aha
Shadeen Francis: Is it those pesky dishes? Right.
Dan: Uh-huh.
Shadeen Francis: big ol’ spark killer.
Dan: Uh-huh. Is it Instagram? [00:29:00] Ins- like mind-numbing scrolling? Uh-huh. Uh-huh
Shadeen Francis: I have been so stressed about work. Maybe our walls are thin and I’m aware that the kids are one room over,
Dan: Yes.
Shadeen Francis: can hear them right now, and
Dan: Huge libido killer for a lot of people. Yep
Shadeen Francis: for a lot of people, right? Maybe I don’t feel well and good inside my body.
Maybe my own body is the context,
Dan: I haven’t showered lately. I just feel blah. Uh-huh. Yeah, yeah
Shadeen Francis: over and over for people, and men in particular, right? This has, uh, c- been couched as a woman’s issue.
Dan: Mm-hmm.
Shadeen Francis: more and more men feeling disconnected from their body,
Dan: Yeah
Shadeen Francis: That they are not feeling good, they have physical pain, their own hormone levels are changing. The two things that men bring into my office over and over and over and over and over again, right, are muscles and hair. Muscles and hair as contexts where, like, I don’t feel like a version of myself [00:30:00] that feels really good to me. I’m not as lean or as strong or as buff or as toned, um, as I would like to be or as I used to be.
Dan: Mm-hmm.
Shadeen Francis: And
Dan: losing my hair as I age.
Shadeen Francis: my hair. I am losing my hair. I’m losing my hair, right? And it’s devastating to try and, like, be embodied in a body that feels unfamiliar
Dan: Yeah.
Shadeen Francis: to you.
Dan: Yeah
Shadeen Francis: But that is a practice that we build because your body will always change for as long as you have the grace and the mercy to continue to get to have a body
Dan: Yes
Shadeen Francis: to evolve and change in this world.
And so we do have to figure out this living context of
Dan: Mm-hmm.
Shadeen Francis: am a s*xual person, emphasis on the person
Dan: Yes. Yes. Uh-huh
Shadeen Francis: and people change, all living things change.
Dan: Uh-huh
Shadeen Francis: that is a piece of the context. But also, again, even just, like, normal things like lighting, sound, [00:31:00] smells, How present can we be to the moment?
And when we are fully present, what facilitates,
Dan: Mm-hmm.
Shadeen Francis: and what disrupts a
Dan: Yeah. Mm-hmm
Shadeen Francis: This is also a good time for us to talk about positive anticipation. We start to salivate we know a good thing is coming, and we are always tracking context cues. That’s why we eat with our eyes first.
If something looks unappealing, we probably don’t want it,
Dan: Uh-huh.
Shadeen Francis: really know for a fact that it is good
Dan: That’s right.
Shadeen Francis: ‘Cause
Dan: Uh-huh
Shadeen Francis: been trained. We’ve been trained. We know this looks weird, but we know it’s gonna be delightful.
Dan: Uh-huh
Shadeen Francis: else, we eat with our eyes, we shop with our eyes, right? Our- we, we, we do things based on smells, right?
Smell is so tied to memory. If we think about where things are situated in the brain, our olfactory system sits right next to our hippocampus. That’s the [00:32:00] part of the brain that stores all of our memories, and they intertwine so much. That’s why smell can be visceral for us,
Dan: Yeah
Shadeen Francis: So all of these sensory things are also context to keep track of, and it ceases to amaze people how often shifting the lighting, or changing your sheets, or taking a shower
Dan: Or doing the laundry, so it’s not…
Shadeen Francis: the laundry
Dan: Right.
Shadeen Francis: Changes. Changes the s*xual reality of your world. We need more positive anticipation.
Dan: Mm-hmm.
Shadeen Francis: And when people talk about losing spark in their relationship, sometimes what has been lost is positive anticipation. When you were dating, you were apart, you made plans, you figured out your outfit. I am a woman, so I have a certain context around that.
Men do their own version of things. Folks of all genders have their own sort of performance, right? But I’m the sort of girl, I’m like thinking about how I’m gonna do my [00:33:00] hair. I’m like thinking about my undergarments. I’m like looking up the restaurant and thinking about what I’m gonna order on the menu and getting excited about trying new foods or… Right? Like, you have all of these things to look forward to. And as we settle into our day-to-day lives, let’s say you’re 15 years in, you know, or even five years in, we start to see some of the shift. We habituate routines. And it doesn’t mean that the routine isn’t good. We do need our steady, you know, uh, comfort systems, you know.
The same way you might have your comfort meal or your default spot on the couch or your favorite blanket. We do need that with each other, and we also need things to be excited about that either are just a part of our every day, like the way that women look forward to like taking their bra off at the end of every
Dan: Yep. Uh-huh
Shadeen Francis: know it is coming and it is part of the routine,
Dan: Uh-huh
Shadeen Francis: us, ” You can relax and exhale now.”
Dan: Aha
Shadeen Francis: And we need the special somethings. [00:34:00] And you actually do a really beautiful job of talking about this, right? You actually talk about… I think you couch it around two… Is it two types of s*x? You know, the maintenance, m- right?
Am I
Dan: Oh, yeah, yeah. I’ve talked about that before, yeah. Yeah.
Shadeen Francis: the maintenance and sort of the…
Dan: right
Shadeen Francis: Right. Beautiful. Beautiful. That kind of consideration fits really well into context of our relationship, right? What is our comfort routine,
Dan: Mm-hmm.
Shadeen Francis: right? But also, like, what feels a little special? And so roommates are often not doing a lot of the special.
Dan: Yeah
Shadeen Francis: But also, we might also be missing some of that, like, steady, good routine.
Dan: Yeah.
Shadeen Francis: So we’ve
Dan: Both serve a purpose, yes
Shadeen Francis: Right, and, and they help us stay connected and present. And so we’ve got the who, we’ve got the what, we’ve got the where, we’ve got the when, right? Some of us need to reconnect to our why Why do
Dan: Gotcha. Uh-huh
Shadeen Francis: want it? And it’s not just, you know, because I grew up knowing that, [00:35:00] you know, good relationships have s*x three times a day, right? Three times a week, three times a month,
Dan: Right
Shadeen Francis: actually need a why, right? What is our goal here? And people sort of balk, you know, because we have a culture also around moving away from goal different s*x, right?
I’m actually not anti-goal. We just need goals that are more in- interesting than org@sm, ’cause you can do that by
Dan: Okay, good. Uh-huh.
Shadeen Francis: You
Dan: I agree with you 100%, by the way, uh, because, uh, goals motivate and move.
Shadeen Francis: Yeah.
Dan: It just set r- just set good goals.
Shadeen Francis: for
Dan: Uh-huh.
Shadeen Francis: Yeah, right? And mutual goals,
Dan: Yes
Shadeen Francis: goals. So if my goal, if our goal here is that this is an opportunity for us to tune out the rest of the world and just experience good touch, wonderful. If this is an opportunity to feel pleasure, beautiful. If this is a thing that helps us both go to sleep, great.
If this is a thing that helps us both start the day without caffeine, awesome. [00:36:00] I
Dan: Aha.
Shadeen Francis: really care
Dan: Aha
Shadeen Francis: is if it works for both of you, and you don’t have to have the shame g- same goal. But we do need to have values and goals that overlap enough that me experiencing what I wanna get out of this does not prevent you from getting what you want or need to get out of this
Dan: Mm-hmm.
Shadeen Francis: And so sometimes people have just compatible goals.
So I’m in this because s*x makes me feel alive, it allows me to feel like a version of myself that feels full of hope and possibility because being touched while I am naked allows me to experience myself as worthwhile and connected to all of the beauty and God’s grace that he’s given to man. Whatever.
One person. The other person might say, “I am, uh, here because this is an opportunity for me to show my partner that I am really in this, right? That I’ve made a commitment to you and to showing up here, and this is one of the ways [00:37:00] that I can demonstrate that I can give you my undivided attention for seven to 39 minutes.” Right? Like, we might want to be the exact same on what we get out of this. We actually don’t need that. We don’t need that. I can enjoy a beautiful meal with my spouse as a person who, like, deeply loves, like, the experience of food,
Dan: Uh-huh.
Shadeen Francis: my partner who eats for survival.
Dan: Uh-huh. All right. Yes, but your goals are incompatible.
Shadeen Francis: They are not
Dan: Yes.
Shadeen Francis: He’s not getting what I’m getting out of it. I just happen to be having a slightly better time, and
Dan: Uh-huh.
Shadeen Francis: That’s fine, right? Because we have structured this in a way that we can both get the fullness of what it is that we want, and so we can celebrate experiencing pleasure and goodness together.
Dan: Got it
Shadeen Francis: Right? So that is our why. And then if any of you really remember this arc, who, what, where, when, why, [00:38:00] and then we get into
Dan: How?
Shadeen Francis: The how.
Dan: Uh-huh
Shadeen Francis: and here’s where we get to talk more about negotiating technique, right? And so here’s where if there are things that are happening in your s*x life that are not really attending to mutual pleasure, right?
Or that are not, um, bringing us mutual enjoyment, or that we’re lacking inspiration, now we get to get very specific. I mean, in my work, all of it is specific.
Dan: Yes.
Shadeen Francis: there, you
Dan: Uh-huh. Yeah.
Shadeen Francis: go, I will go.
Dan: Yes. Yep.
Shadeen Francis: Right? But how… This how is when we start putting rubber to the road, and we might start talking about, okay, like, let’s actually figure out when you say, you know, more pressure, what do you actually mean by more pressure?
Can you take his hand and show him on the back of his hand, like,
Dan: Uh-huh.
Shadeen Francis: of pressure and in what direction? Okay, we’re talking about rubbing. Like, what is a good rub, right? Like, let’s do that. Okay, now you take her hand. Do it [00:39:00] back. Does that feel like the kind of… Like, we start to get really meticulous Because some of this is also the ex- you used the word exploration.
It is learning another person’s body,
Dan: It’s a learned thing.
Shadeen Francis: pers-
Dan: Right
Shadeen Francis: are, these are not skills that you’re born with. Some of us happen to have transferable skills that we get to like, you know, over. You know? It’s like I’m looking at one right now. Folks who play instruments, for example, guitar players,
Dan: Uh-huh
Shadeen Francis: they might have a certain kind of finger dexterity.
As you might see, like, my fingers spread really far.
Dan: Uh-huh.
Shadeen Francis: useful for stuff.
Dan: Yep.
Shadeen Francis: really good, great, great grip strength.
Dan: Mm-hmm. Yes
Shadeen Francis: You might have really mobile hips. That might be useful for stuff. You
Dan: Uh-huh.
Shadeen Francis: a tongue that you can really control in lots of ways.
That might be useful for stuff,
Dan: Very useful. Yep
Shadeen Francis: right? And most things are, know, skills that are built, [00:40:00] skills that are practiced, and even if you have a body that doesn’t do a particular thing, right, that we can still expand our toolkit, our repertoire, to be able to meet each other in mutual satisfaction
Dan: That’s really good. Good. Got it. It’s the who, what, when, where, why, and how. Breaking it up there, but starting with embodied desire so you know which direction you’re going. Love all of that. What a great framework
Shadeen Francis: Thank you. Thank you, thank you. Yeah, I’ve been playing with it and refining it truly over the entirety of my career. You know, I started working with folks in 2013.
Dan: Mm-hmm.
Shadeen Francis: at the time we are talking, it’s, it’s been a juicy long time. We’re talking 13 years. Uh, and over the last few, it has been really meaningful for me to think about how do I also take what I’m doing outside of my brain, right?
I can only work with so many people in this lifetime. Um, and thinking about more and more [00:41:00] ways to share with others who can facilitate some of this, but also to give, to put the power back to the people. That is always my commitment. I, I want us to be well, and I … My goal is not to empower anyone. This is to honor the power you already have
Dan: Mm-hmm.
Shadeen Francis: experience the life that you want. Um, and so yeah, I’m currently still in an ongoing stage of figuring out the right ways to share all of this. Um, but I’m so happy that I got to nerd out
Dan: Yes, I love it
Shadeen Francis: it with all of you. It is dense, and my people are Caribbean, so my hope is that anyone listening feels full. You know, it would, it would be a, kind of a dishonoring
Dan: Uh-huh.
Shadeen Francis: of the space, you know, if I have you over or if I d- you know, show up to a space and people don’t leave full.
Dan: Yeah
Shadeen Francis: hope that there, that there is a lot there, so much so that there could be at least one thing, that you’re taking away that [00:42:00] gives you new curiosity for a place that you felt stuck, right? If you can form one new question
Dan: Mm-hmm.
Shadeen Francis: in a stuck place, I feel like, okay, I, I’ve done right by you
Dan: Yes. And then have that conversation with courage and be open to their influence.
Shadeen Francis: And so
Dan: So many takeaways
Shadeen Francis: yeah. Thank you, and I’m sorry for clipping you a little bit there, but from, from that place, I’m curious what might be landing for you or, like, a thing that you’re chewing on, right? It could be for your own self, but even, I mean, you, you also do this work, and so I’m just wondering what’s, what, what, what
Dan: What’s coming up for me right now through all this?
Shadeen Francis: Yeah
Dan: uh, there is a phase in my marriage where I was not open to my wife’s influence as much, especially around s*x, ’cause I really had it in my head that I had it right, she had it wrong, and I had to drag her up to my level, and it was my job to do that.
And it just really, [00:43:00] um, it didn’t– It set us back years in our s*xual growth because of that entitlement and whatever. if we had a tool like this then, what I would have done differently then was to just, uh, get clear on what I want, which I felt like I was clear on. But what I wasn’t clear on is opening up to what my wife’s experience was like
Shadeen Francis: hmm.
Dan: that as equally valid as mine.
Because fundamentally, until I honored my wife and saw her as an equal to me, none of this would have helped. Like, I, “Yeah, sure, I’ll fill this out. I, I know, I know what I want. I know how to do this.” But it really takes a dose of humility, I think. It takes a dose of, um,
Shadeen Francis: Yeah
Dan: willingness to hold my opinions, but not, maybe not so tightly, a little more loosely, and to be open to a marriage where there’s room for two instead of it’s just a very one person dominated [00:44:00] relationship.
Well, it depends on the context, right? In a different context, someone else could really take up all the room. The other person doesn’t have much of a say. But it’s, it’s really learning to grow into, “Okay, I– how do we make room for two?”
Shadeen Francis: Hmm.
Dan: So
Shadeen Francis: That’s
Dan: that, that’s, that’s what’s coming up for me as I think about this.
Shadeen Francis: That is so good, and I imagine so many people will feel kindred to that. Many people will feel seen that, you know, and I, I know factually, you know, how much your relationship has benefited from you being willing to look closely at that, right? Because we can’t do this without two like sovereign selves,
Dan: Great
Shadeen Francis: if we are going to have shared pleasure, right, that like you need to be like you, and I need to be me, and we actually have to have a power relationship between us that allows each of us to [00:45:00] know that I can show up fully here, and I’m not, you know, in subservience to you, in deference to you.
Dan: Yes
Shadeen Francis: around that, but still that, that kind of game is a choice, right?
Dan: that’s, that’s in the play realm. Yes. Yes.
Shadeen Francis: need … I … Even there, like I still need to be wholly myself to be able to play a game of surrender with
Dan: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Uh-huh. Yeah
Shadeen Francis: you know, this figuring out the appropriate balance between self and others, I just remind folks that in this, in these exchanges, not just in s*x but in all of our relationships, that I am always responsible for myself.
Dan: Yes
Shadeen Francis: I am always responsible for me, and I am accountable to you
Dan: Mm-hmm. But accountable to someone else doesn’t mean you’re responsible for them
Shadeen Francis: No. Right? And so thank you for, for making sure that that is really clear because I am being really intentional in how I phrase that. Right? I am responsible [00:46:00] for me, so I choose, even if they’re crappy choices ahead of me. You know, the options were not ideal, and so I could not bring the best version of myself in these conditions.
At the end of the day, I choose, right? I am responsible for the actions that I take, and I’m accountable for how the things that I do impact those around me. That doesn’t mean that I have to now change everything for you. It just means that I have to own that the choices that I make matter to other people,
Dan: Make an impact, yeah. Yep
Shadeen Francis: vice versa.
So they are responsible for themselves, right, and accountable to you. And if we can share that, right, it’s so easy to play. It’s so easy to explore, right? It doesn’t mean that it’s not gonna still cost you something. It’s still gonna cost you courage. It’s still gonna cost you, you know, [00:47:00] vulnerability, right?
That, that intimacy, you know, those are, those are your tickets to entry, you know?
Dan: Mm-hmm.
Shadeen Francis: Um, but we, we no longer have to get distracted by all of this other stuff around exploitation or being taken advantage of or all of these hidden questions or blame or contempt or resentment, right? I own my choices, and I recognize that everything that I choose also impacts you.
And so I consider how m- what I decide to do that is right for me, right, how that could also be right for you. And we meet in that space, it’s so much easier to have the kind of relationship that moves us from disconnected and distracted to I am present and have possibilities for pleasure
Dan: I love that. I say you don’t compromise your way to a better s*x life, you collaborate your way. [00:48:00] In fact, what you’re describing invites this collaboration. That’s really good
Shadeen Francis: I like that
Dan: Well, Shadeen, this has been fantastic. Before we leave, just my own curiosity, show everyone your cool mug. And what else do you have?
This is so on brand. This is so funny
Shadeen Francis: It, it very much is, and I forget all the time that they look like this. One, ’cause my side doesn’t do that.
Dan: Uh-huh.
Shadeen Francis: It’s, it’s regular on my side.
Dan: So for those listening, she’s holding up a mug that’s a bust of a woman, has, has b00bs, so
Shadeen Francis: Yeah, almost all of the mugs, uh, at my house do.
Dan: Uh-huh. That’s good.
Shadeen Francis: the human form
Dan: That’s great. Is that a phallic pillow too on your couch? Looks like it
Shadeen Francis: no.
Dan: No
Shadeen Francis: actually The other pillows though are these.
Dan: Okay, got it. So you have to watch the YouTube version of this to see what she just held up, but
Shadeen Francis: please come, please come see us.
Dan: That’s good.[00:49:00]
Shadeen Francis: we, we’ve
Dan: good
Shadeen Francis: got lots of art in the home, and
Dan: Uh-huh
Shadeen Francis: uh, is, is on theme.
Dan: Very good. Yeah. Very good. Normalizing this. Fantastic. Thank you.
Shadeen Francis: Thank
Dan: can people go to learn more about you, your work, to connect with you?
Shadeen Francis: Yeah, if people are looking for me, number one place, uh, is my website shadeenfrancis.com. also I am, a person that you can find in other realms of the internet, so sometimes you’ll see me on Instagram. Truthfully, I’ve been really good at life in real life. and so but you might catch me there. It is also my name, Shadeen Francis, on Instagram
Dan: Very good. Thank you very much
Shadeen Francis: Thank you
Dan: All right, friend, thank you for listening., Please share this podcast with your friends or rate and review it on the podcast app, wherever you like to listen, and go get your marriage on
[00:50:00]
