What if the way you’re trying to create more intimacy in your marriage is actually making your spouse want it less?
When one spouse wants sex more often than the other, it’s easy to get stuck in a frustrating cycle. One person pursues, the other withdraws, and both end up feeling misunderstood, pressured, or rejected.
In this episode, I’m joined by my friend Dr. Corey Allan, host of the Sexy Marriage Radio podcast, to talk about what he calls clean and dirty signals in marriage.
You might be perfectly clear about what you want, but are you being clean about how you communicate it?
Sometimes dirty signals show up as subtle punishment after rejection, unspoken expectations, or resentment when your spouse doesn’t respond the way you hoped. Other times they look like avoidance, mixed messages, or promises of intimacy that aren’t genuine.
And here’s the important part: both the higher-desire and lower-desire spouse can contribute to this dynamic.
Corey and I discuss:
- The difference between being clear and being clean about your desires
- How subtle reactions to rejection can create more pressure and distance
- The dirty signals lower-desire spouses may send without realizing it
- Why both spouses need to take responsibility for their side of the desire dynamic
- A practical way to communicate your interest and energy level before intimacy
- Why repairing after difficult moments matters more than getting everything right
- How learning to like yourself can change the way you show up in your marriage
If you’ve ever felt like you’re doing all the work to improve intimacy—or like nothing you do is ever enough—this conversation will help you look at your marriage from a different perspective.
Resources mentioned:
Dr. Corey Allan’s free healthy marriage course: https://smr.fm/gofirst
Guest: Dr. Corey Allan
Host of Sexy Marriage Radio, Author, Marriage and Family Therapist, father of 2 and married to Pam for over 30 yrs.
Transcript
This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors or inaccuracies. For the most accurate and complete experience, we recommend listening to the full podcast episode.
Dr. Corey Allan: [00:00:00] the dirty, initiation or the dirty signals are I’m upfront about what I want, and then if it doesn’t unfold the way I want, I punish her in some way.
And it’s usually not the overt punishment. It’s a much more sophisticated, covert coldness, subtleness, weaponization, phrases under my breath, you know, those kinds of things that are diminishing of her.
Dan Purcell: In a lot of marriages, one spouse does most of the initiating. When the other makes an effort, he’s quick to [00:01:00] praise it like, “Hey, I really like that you initiated.” And he’s already thinking about the next rung on the ladder. Meanwhile, the wife in this scenario, the other spouse, just climbed one r- rung of the ladder and would like a minute to enjoy it, please.
Thank you very much. Instead, she’s quietly wondering why she even bothers because it never seems to be enough. If you’ve been on either side of this ladder before, I think this episode is for you. My guest is Dr. Corey Allen. He’s a personal friend of mine, as well as the host of the Sexy Marriage Radio podcast.
He has been working with couples for 25 years, which means he’s seen just about every version of the pursue and withdraw pattern that we’re gonna talk about today. He’s also been a guest on this show before, and I was excited to have him back ahead of his new book that he’s coming out with called Go First.
My biggest takeaway from this conversation with Corey is that being clear about you want isn’t the same thing as being clean. What [00:02:00] matters most is how you handle the answer, and both the higher and the lower desire spouse can see what Corey says when he says you send dirty signals. The good news is that everyone, whether you’re the higher desire or the lower desire spouse in your marriage, can clean up your signals that you send to each other.
In this interview, we’re gonna talk about those clean and dirty signals, how each spouse can kinda get in their own way, and what repair really looks like when you don’t handle things well. You’ll hear some of Corey’s personal examples too. You’ll hear the quiet ways a higher desire spouse can punish a no without even saying a word, and you’ll hear the maybe tomorrow if line that turns lower desire spouse’s answer into a carrot they never quite get.
You’ll hear about the couple who rates their energy on a scale of one to 10 before anything starts as a great way to, communicate a clean signal. You’ll also [00:03:00] hear the line that Corey uses with his wife, Pen, on long, rough days. and she said yes to that one, in case you’re wondering. Towards the end of this episode, I ask Corey how to actually like yourself more, so you’re not leaning on your spouse to prop you up, and you’ll like the picture that he leaves us with about stained glass.
So make sure you stay to the end, ’cause this is a good episode about how to send better communication with your spouse. If you like this and wanna get better at communicating in your own marriage, sign up for our in-person retreat that’s coming up next April. This is for couples who would say they’re otherwise in a happy relationship but really wish things were better when it came to intimacy, whether that’s s*xual or emotional closeness.
Because this retreat does a deep dive on it for four days and four nights in luxurious accommodations. And by the way, the setting is fun. It’s upbeat. It’s not stuffy, and it’s r- it’s romantic, and you’re gonna have a great time. [00:04:00] but space is limited. That’s the catch. So, don’t delay. Go ahead and register now.
You go to getyourmarriageon.com, click Events, and you’ll see that information there.
Dan Purcell: Corey, it’s so good to have you back on the “Get Your Marriage On” podcast. How are you today?
Dr. Corey Allan: this, this’ll– I’m good, man. This’ll be fun. I’m a little sore coming off of a half marathon over the weekend, but the legs are getting better, so I’ll be running again tomorrow, hopefully.
Dan Purcell: Oh, that’s good. And running is kind of new for you, right?
Dr. Corey Allan: Yeah, this was my third half,
Dan Purcell: Uh-huh.
Dr. Corey Allan: the last year. So I’m, I’m just over a year of, of getting into this seriously and shocking myself every day on how much I enjoy it.
Dan Purcell: That’s awesome.
Dr. Corey Allan: Or as I’ve heard, or as I’ve heard from a fellow therapist friend, um, “I didn’t realize I hate myself as much as I do since I’m really getting into the running,” so
Dan Purcell: Okay, I guess that’s a positive way of looking at it. That’s good. That’s good. Okay, well, [00:05:00] congratulations. Third race in a year. That’s great. And, uh, I think you told me your son ran the last mile and a half with you at the–
Dr. Corey Allan: Yeah, he
Dan Purcell: the finish.
Dr. Corey Allan: joined… He was there in the crowd, and then it was such an open,
Dan Purcell: Of
Dr. Corey Allan: r-route as far as the course. It wasn’t a huge… This wasn’t a huge one in the Metroplex, so weren’t tons and tons of people there. And so he’s like, “I’m gonna run the last mile.” I’m like, “Come on.” So he crossed the finish line with me, and it was fun.
Dan Purcell: That’s cool. My 13-year-old daughter ran a half marathon with me a little while ago, too.
Dr. Corey Allan: Sweet.
Dan Purcell: “I’m 13, and I wanna run 13 miles.” So we trained together, and we did it at a 13-minute mile pace, so it all worked out.
Dr. Corey Allan: it, it’s kind of all full circle. So awesome.
Dan Purcell: Yeah, that’s great. So, um, coaching a couple,
Dr. Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.
Dan Purcell: the presenting problem is this is just stereotypical, kind of the pattern I see a lot. One spouse has, I guess you say he’s more the initiator, right? He’s the one initiating s*x, more desire for s*x in the relationship. [00:06:00] Um, pursues. She withdraws. and he wants her to just step up her game more.
She makes a little bit of an effort. Uh, he praises her a lot, like, “Good job,” almost like a, like an obedient puppy. But then quickly, uh, makes sure that they’re gonna move on to the next thing that he has in mind, like, right? ‘Cause he’s thinking, “We’re on, like, the second rung of a ladder, and we’ve got a lot more to go.”
And she’s like, “Wait, just let me celebrate. I just got up one rung on the ladder.” So he’s always a step or two ahead of her, and she’s quickly discouraged, like, “Why even bother? Why even try? I’m, I’m trying this effort, and it’s just not good enough for you.” Is this a dynamic– how would you talk about this dynamic in the framework of– you have a fantastic book coming out hopefully this fall called “Go First.”
Let’s talk about that in that context.
Dr. Corey Allan: Well, I mean, obviously this sets the stage with a lot of what the [00:07:00] terminology you and I both use with the higher desire, lower desire, that there’s one in every relationship, and that’s worth understanding. Uh, that’s a dynamic that’s neither one has high ground or is better than or broken or anything like that.
It’s always comparative.
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm. Uh-huh.
Dr. Corey Allan: And so if he has this– he’s the higher desire for s*x in this scenario.
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Corey Allan: She’s the lower desire, which is a big difference between no desire, uh, ’cause that’s sometimes a really good distinction to understand.
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Corey Allan: Um, and so if he’s one that– he sounds like in s- a lot of instances, he’s playing both sides of the script here,
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Corey Allan: he’s pushing and he’s prodding and he’s hoping and he’s, he’s kind of massaging it all.
Dan Purcell: Uh-huh.
Dr. Corey Allan: if she starts to make some movement, he’s praising it and he’s encouraging it, you know, which is this whole Uh, that’s like training. That’s not, that’s not [00:08:00] choice.
Dan Purcell: Uh-huh.
Dr. Corey Allan: so what often happens that’s so insidious that I don’t think people recognize is if I’m having to train a spouse in this scenario, which is very, very sophisticated in the way we…
‘Cause we– I-I-I’ll speak for me. I’ve done this.
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Corey Allan: it’s been very, very subtle. It’s been very, very covert, but I’ve done this
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Corey Allan: over the thirty-three years with Pam almost now. And it’s– if, if I’m actually– if he’s working that hard to try to cultivate connection with her, s*xually, when they have a s*xual connection, he can easily still take the stance of, “Yeah, but you didn’t really want it.
You weren’t really engaged. You didn’t actually choose it,” because she’s just performing, quote, unquote.
Dan Purcell: For him.
Dr. Corey Allan: to change and do and pr-
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Corey Allan: and follow. And, and so it c- it becomes this pitfall for both of [00:09:00] them that she can easily take the stance of nothing’s ever enough, because in that context, it’s not, because she’s never actually free to fully choose.
Dan Purcell: Yeah. Yeah,
So Corey, where do you go with this?
Dr. Corey Allan: Okay. So this is where when you’re doing couples work, I mean, I know you do a lot of couples coaching. So when you’re doing couples work, it’s figuring out how do I have the ability in a lot of ways to, to handle both sides at the same time?
Dan Purcell: Yes.
Dr. Corey Allan: Because this is not a communication problem in the sense of she’s not, uh, unaware of his higher desireness and he’s not unaware of her lower desire.
So there’s not lack of understanding here.
Dan Purcell: You’re right.
Dr. Corey Allan: this, this is about how is he being a good high desire or higher desire
Dan Purcell: Uh-huh.
Dr. Corey Allan: getting in his own way. And then how is she having to face the, the dynamic she’s in as the lower desire and, and really [00:10:00] what is she being asked to handle of herself in this as well as him?
So it’s like they both are exposing something in the other because of the nature of what a marriage does. And so for him, this, this is one of the contexts I love and, and just kind of starting to formulate it as far as the, the verbiage around it is there’s a lot of times where higher desires, they get in their own way because they’re not clean
Dan Purcell: Yeah.
Dr. Corey Allan: they’re being a higher desire,
Dan Purcell: Yeah. And as the higher desire spouse, you think you’re clean, but you might not be clean,
Dr. Corey Allan: I think I’m clean because I’m clear about what I want. I’m
Dan Purcell: Yes. I want the next rung on the ladder or whatever it is.
Dr. Corey Allan: clear about setting the stage or cultivating an environment of taking, taking my wife on a date and being very upfront and saying, “Hey,” know, even, even as simple as, “It’s been a while since we’ve connected s*xually.
I’d love to tonight.” I mean, that’s really [00:11:00] clear
Dan Purcell: Yes.
Dr. Corey Allan: on that aspect of it. But then there’s another component of this though, where there’s some dirtiness that can come in, and this is where most of us aren’t aware.
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Corey Allan: the dirty, initiation or the dirty signals are a stage, I’m, I’m upfront about what I want, and then if it doesn’t unfold the way I want, or if she’s not willing to go up the next rung of the ladder, I punish her in some way.
And it’s usually not the overt punishment. It’s a much more sophisticated, covert coldness, subtleness, weaponization, phrases under my breath, you know, those kinds of things that are diminishing of her.
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Corey Allan: and where that starts to become so problematic we don’t even recognize is I’m diminishing somebody that I’m saying I really want a whole lot with.
Dan Purcell: Which makes you think you– Rather than wanting a whole lot with them, what you really want is [00:12:00] to be right, or, or have the control or whatever is what you really…
Dr. Corey Allan: Uh,
Dan Purcell: your behavior is
Dr. Corey Allan: it’s, it’s
Dan Purcell: showing. Uh-huh.
Dr. Corey Allan: things on my terms only. I, I,
Dan Purcell: Yes.
Dr. Corey Allan: things for just me. And, and
Dan Purcell: Yeah.
Dr. Corey Allan: an element of, separation and coldness sometimes cruelty as it pertains to my spouse of like, “This isn’t really about you. This is just about me. Let’s just keep it about this,” right? And, and so for him, it’s recognizing how are you being, sending dirty signals and you maybe aren’t even aware?
I mean, that’s what I was rem- w- pre-show recording, we were– I was just talking about it. I’ve had three clients today, and this has been the theme ’cause they’ve all been higher desire husbands that have come into my office, and every single one of them, it’s like, “Okay, let’s unpack this. What– Tell me what you did.
Tell me how you said it. Tell me what– And okay, tell me what happened.” They talk about what happened. “Okay, then tell me what happened after that.” And as they start un- you know, replaying it, it’s like, “Okay, look at yourself here. What, what’s going on [00:13:00] here?” Right? ‘Cause again, Dan, this is important for the audience to understand. It’s not that you’re, you can’t be disappointed if I don’t get, uh, uh, you know, something received well
Dan Purcell: yeah.
Dr. Corey Allan: and joined in on. I c- I’m– totally can be hurt. I totally can be frustrated. I totally can be disappointed. That’s fine. But most of the time, we weaponize our feelings. We make sure they know I’m disappointed.
They know I’m hurt. know, and so I make it as they are the reason for my pain rather than no, that’s part of being a higher desire. That’s part of living in a relationship is I’m not gonna get everything I want. gotta deal with that. And so being clean means I’m upfront with what I am wanting or I’m where I’m leading it, and then I’m handling however it goes better.
I’m just absorbing it. I’m digesting it well. I’m still treating with respect and love and compassion leading where I’m hoping it’ll [00:14:00] go. And so for him, that’s, a cleaner look of just that’s what often happens, I think. I mean, you, you see this as well?
Dan Purcell: Absolutely. And as we’re talking, I have another scenario in, just in a different context where I’ve r- really been in the middle of this. I submitted an application, uh, to speak at this thing. I feel like I’m very qualified, I’m right on point, I’ve got the experience, I think they want me, and I was denied.
Dr. Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.
Dan Purcell: And so, uh, it’s easy for me to go the dirty pain route, right? It’s like, “They don’t know what they’re mi- like, who are they to, to turn me down?” And, and I… Maybe some character assassination on their end, or they weren’t careful, they didn’t even read my application,
Dr. Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.
Dan Purcell: an easy place for me to go.
That’s the dirty pain, I think what you’re talking about. Where the cleaner pain could be, “Ouch, that hurts. Denial hurts.”
Dr. Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.
Dan Purcell: But what am I gonna do about it? It’s the greater question. How do I respond with rejection and [00:15:00] denial in my life?
How do I want to respond to that? it’s like living a principled life, right? Like, of course it hurts, but do I react out of that pain and Do dirty things or think dirty things? Or do I feel the pain? Yes, it hurts, but I can still choose, like, a, a higher path or whatever my response. I am
Dr. Corey Allan: go, e-even go a little bit deeper than this of what is the rejection and the whole scenario actually exposing in us?
Dan Purcell: Ah, that’s right. And it’s by exposing… Yes.
Dr. Corey Allan: of… I mean, this is, this is from somebody that I’ve worked with in, in the way past, that he talked about, um, his frustration was he felt like a lot of times when they had s*x, if nothing else, it was more just kinda going through the motions. And what he really desperately wanted was a wife that wanted that for herself and for [00:16:00] them and, you know. And so some likelihood is it- that’s there. It’s just not the way he’s seeing it. But there’s also elements of, yeah, that’s a dynamic that happens in marriage.
Dan Purcell: Yep.
Dr. Corey Allan: kinda looking at the whole of his life and his relationship with his wife, and he came very clean and clear to him about, okay, wait, ’cause it…
Usually there’s a corollary. Like, if I have something I’m frustrated with with Pam, it’s very, very likely I’m doing something that’s the very same thing that frustrates me in some other way in my life.
Dan Purcell: Uh-huh.
Dr. Corey Allan: for him, he realized wife loved at the end of the day to verbal process the day, which often sometimes, depending on the severity of what the day was, could’ve just been the complaint dump,
Dan Purcell: Yes.
Dr. Corey Allan: you just come home and I’m just, I’m just complaining about coworkers, and I’m just complaining about the project that didn’t go well, and I’m complaining
Dan Purcell: And
Dr. Corey Allan: whatever, right? And…
Dan Purcell: he’s like, “Are you done yet? This is taking forever.”
[00:17:00] Uh-huh.
Dr. Corey Allan: going through the motions
Dan Purcell: Ah,
Dr. Corey Allan: listening to her, ’cause he’s not actually really listening to her. And it’s, and it’s confirmed because many times, and this is his report, she would say, “Well, what, what do you think?” And he di- he totally re- didn’t realize she asked him a question. He wasn’t even listening, right? Because he had just zoned out, which, hello, that’s exactly what she would do sometimes during s*x that would frustrate him.
So it’s just this whole what’s exposed in you in that moment is I could be doing the very same thing that’s frustrating me,
Dan Purcell: Yeah.
Dr. Corey Allan: right? Uh, there’s something that I don’t know that maybe I have a skill set, like in your case. Maybe there’s a skill set that I’m, I’m blind to That I could refine. And this gives me an opportunity to have some courage ask some better questions of myself. and then I kind of use that as a motivation into this and at least get a whole lot cleaner with how I do the whole of my [00:18:00] life more often than not.
Dan Purcell: And in this specific scenario, probably the more honest answer is I’m not as qualified as I think I am
Dr. Corey Allan: Okay.
Dan Purcell: Or I probably have a higher opinion of myself than I actually really do, or whatever it might be, right? And this,
Dr. Corey Allan: I get
Dan Purcell: and this-
Dr. Corey Allan: ’cause going through the
Dan Purcell: Yeah.
Dr. Corey Allan: of this book, you know, I’ve talked to an agent. I was real hopeful of, “Hey, I think I can get on,” and then I wound up, no, they don’t… They’re not interested. And it’s like, okay, well… but then what they’re telling me is like, legitimacy there.” That’s fair ’cause I even asked point blank. I was like, “Okay, give me the rationale. What, what, what am I missing? What do I not know?”
Dan Purcell: Yeah.
Dr. Corey Allan: me a couple things. I’m like, totally okay, I get that. . I don’t know if I wanna work on that, so at least I know, and, you ’cause that’s just the business side of it.
But think of how often this happens in marriage of,
Dan Purcell: Oh, absolutely, yeah.
Dr. Corey Allan: wife has tons of data on you. Right?
Dan Purcell: Yep.
Dr. Corey Allan: of it is skewed, but some of it actually does you [00:19:00] some good
Dan Purcell: Uh-huh.
Dr. Corey Allan: it gets exposed because it’s an opportunity to realize, wait, you know what? You’re not quite as refined there as you maybe think you are, or you’re not…
You’re not… You know, you’re kind of it there a little bit in that aspect of life, and better than that. You know? And it’s just that kinda element of that’s always going on. And so if you look at life, particularly our s*x life, just a mirror of it reveals stuff in us.
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Corey Allan: So I can use that as an opportunity to grow tremendously if I have the courage at it.
Dan Purcell: That’s good. What’s another scenario of a couple you’ve worked with that highlights this clean versus dirty
Dr. Corey Allan: go, let’s
Dan Purcell: signal, whatever?
Dr. Corey Allan: though ’cause we need to deal with her
Dan Purcell: Okay.
Dr. Corey Allan: there’s
Dan Purcell: Okay. Oh,
Dr. Corey Allan: I
Dan Purcell: yeah. We talked about his side. Yes. Yep.
Dr. Corey Allan: side of the equation that
Dan Purcell: keep it balanced. That’s great.
Dr. Corey Allan: she’s got, um, her own issues that are being exposed here of, [00:20:00] you know, and not knowing a lot about her, there’s an element of being the lower desire.
One is they just want a break, ’cause this is part of the systemic element of this, is I don’t wanna be the one that c- is in control of this. But systemically speaking, the lower desire spouse controls it. That’s just the way it goes, whether they like it not.
Dan Purcell: Right.
Dr. Corey Allan: And so then it gets better. It, it gets, okay, how is she being clean?
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Corey Allan: With the signals that are oftentimes in response to. Because if she’s like a lot of lower desire spouses, they’re not necessarily r- walking around day in, day out just sending out signals s*xually, right?
Dan Purcell: Yeah.
Dr. Corey Allan: But it’s what they are and are capable of, but it’s not the way they orient to life a lot of times.
It’s there, but it’s responsive. And so for her, it’s okay. can have dirty or dirty signals in the way she’s, “You never want bl- I’m never bl-,” you know, [00:21:00] all these kinds of things, which is just an overreaction pushing back that’s not helping either one of them.
Dan Purcell: Yep.
Dr. Corey Allan: And if, and if in that scenario you painted of if she’s gained some ground, like she truly sees, “Wait a second, I do feel more s*xual.
I do feel deeper
Dan Purcell: Uh-huh. They’re
Dr. Corey Allan: more
Dan Purcell: progress. Right. Uh-huh.
Dr. Corey Allan: I’ve, I’ve got some growth here, and maybe you don’t see it, but that does not mean it does not exist.” there’s an element of being able to kinda own that in front of him and say, “Honey, you may not see this yet, but it is there for me. And I’ve… I really do like this more in me now.”
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Corey Allan: and so that’s because, again, there’s usually gonna be a discrepancy on the way the higher desire sees things versus the way the lower desire sees things. That’s the reality of this. And so if you can for her, her chance to own her role in the [00:22:00] dynamic. We use, with Sexy Marriage Radio, we use the, the concept of just be a good higher desire or lower desire spouse. That’s all you gotta be. That’s the goal, is just play your part as it fits within your system better, and that, that changes the pressure. It doesn’t make it go away. That’s the one thing most people wish they could happen. Like, ” I
Dan Purcell: Yeah.
Dr. Corey Allan: I just wish they’d stop.” I’m like, “Well, no, you probably don’t,” ’cause it actually creates some good things in other ways. But if you just recognize, okay, how do I, how do I be a better lower desire? Which means, “You know what? No, I’m not interested tonight.”
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Corey Allan: And, and if you wanna offer, “How about in the morning? How about tomorrow?” Okay, make sure it’s a genuine thing
Dan Purcell: Uh-huh.
Dr. Corey Allan: sometimes the, the dirty signals are, “No, I’m not interested, but if this gets done tomorrow, then maybe.”
And that’s weaponizing and dangling,
Dan Purcell: The carrot that the next person doesn’t get.
Dr. Corey Allan: I want, I wanna
Dan Purcell: It’s manipulation.[00:23:00]
Dr. Corey Allan: to, to, to do it the way I want, and like, wait. So we both can do this. Doesn’t matter higher desire or lower desire,
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Corey Allan: realizing for both there’s something being exposed, and For him it could’ve been He’s really seeking too much validation from this.
It’s not really coming from a solid self. She might not have as much, confidence in this area in her life, and it’s exposing some serious insecurities or some past or something that
Dan Purcell: Yeah
Dr. Corey Allan: you’re in marriage. It’s gonna be exposed one way or another. And so it’s an opportunity yourself down, not grow into where you’re this big s*xual vixen necessarily.
It’s just settle myself down to be the s*xual person I wanna be, whatever that may look like.
Dan Purcell: What is a step then to recognize, “Oh, maybe the signals I’m sending aren’t quite the cleanest of signals.” what Are the telltale signs?
Dr. Corey Allan: often it’s gonna [00:24:00] be, have some more objectivity of how I react to
Dan Purcell: Got it.
Dr. Corey Allan: keys us in because if you think about it, Dan, um, some instances, this is real broad brush, right? And I’m gonna use anxiety as a all-encompassing term.
Dan Purcell: Yeah. Uncomfortable. Being uncomfortable. Yeah.
Dr. Corey Allan: both the higher desire and the lower desire have anxiety
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Corey Allan: They’re just about different things. The anxiety’s attached to different things. The higher desire’s like, “Do you want me? Do I
Dan Purcell: Uh-huh.
Dr. Corey Allan: I feel desired? Do I feel pursued?” And the lower desire’s anxiety is, “I feel pressured. I
Dan Purcell: Uh-huh.
Dr. Corey Allan: wanna do this,”
Dan Purcell: Yep.
Dr. Corey Allan: not
Dan Purcell: Yep.
Dr. Corey Allan: And, and so if I start to realize, okay, what’s the real fuel of this?
How would I name what’s underneath it, and I can usually get it from how I react. I mean, I notice the times when I have not handled a, a rejection from Pam [00:25:00] a audible from Pam. I mean, we’ve gotten pretty good at just she’ll call audibles a lot of times rather than, um, you know…
It’s, it’s us– I don’t usually phrase things as a yes or no anyway ’cause I’ve kinda learned that early on. Don’t ask a lower desire spouse a yes or no question as it pertains to ‘Cause typically when I ask, she’s not in a framework anyway, so it’s not…
Dan Purcell: Right.
Dr. Corey Allan: when she’s at work, and that’s the worst time.
She’s not thinking about it at
Dan Purcell: Yeah.
Dr. Corey Allan: Here you and I are doing a show on the content, so of course it’s in our minds.
Dan Purcell: Exactly.
Dr. Corey Allan: but, there’s this element of when I’m really anxious about something and I’m not aware,
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Corey Allan: to her or r-responses that aren’t a, “Yes, let’s go,” kind of a response are so different than when I am more in, in solidness and more in settledness, and it’s coming from the more goodness part of me, right?
But if I’m feeling [00:26:00] really low or down or lonely and that’s the fuel for why I’m actually reaching out, boy, I crumble differently she, if she says no. And actually, I also don’t really pursue the same kind of energy if she says yes because I’m looking for something different
Dan Purcell: Uh-huh.
Dr. Corey Allan: that’s much sneakier, that I’m
Dan Purcell: Got it.
Dr. Corey Allan: about me, and
Dan Purcell: Yeah.
Dr. Corey Allan: not, that’s not her role, eh, p-particularly covertly. And
Dan Purcell: No.
Dr. Corey Allan: if I can look at it as of what’s my reaction to things.
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Corey Allan: my husband asks me something, like if I’m the lower desire wife like we’re talking about in these scenarios, and my husband comes home and I’m w– I’m seeing all the telltale signs
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Corey Allan: and so I find myself starting to avoid or I find myself trying to, uh, you know, change the subject or I find myself going to bed earlier, disappearing in my phone and, and I
Dan Purcell: Yes.
Dr. Corey Allan: those things, that’s all dirty signals ’cause it’s not like I’m not [00:27:00] aware he’s interested.
Dan Purcell: Yeah. What would be a cleaner alternative then?
Dr. Corey Allan: So a cleaner would be if I’m really in the mode of, “No way, no how. It’s been a rough day. You have no idea.” I don’t want s*x to connect. I want actually glass of wine on the back porch connect
Dan Purcell: Yep. Uh-huh.
Dr. Corey Allan: if I’m more aware of me, a cleaner of that would be, “Honey, I kinda– I, I, I’m reading all the signals.
I know you’re interested in a little s*x tonight. I’m not, but I’d love to have a chance to sit down and just chat.” connect because it’s been a long time since we’ve actually just had you and I on the back porch and just talked.
Dan Purcell: Yeah.
Dr. Corey Allan: then could be, why are you pressuring me? I don’t have time for this.
Because now they just switch roles of who’s the higher desire, who’s the lower desire. Just
Dan Purcell: For connection.
Dr. Corey Allan: right?
Dan Purcell: Yeah, exactly. Uh-huh.
Dr. Corey Allan: And so, the same concept still at play regardless of topic. And so the [00:28:00] more able to see, how do I respond to these things? How do I react
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Corey Allan: to these things? Boy, I learn a lot about myself
Dan Purcell: Yeah.
Dr. Corey Allan: can kind of look back at those things.
Because typically, Dan, if you’re, I mean, I’ll own me here. I suck at knowing it in the moment,
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Dr. Corey Allan: right? I’m just, I’m lost in my feels. I’m lost in my hurt. I’m lost in my disappointment or whatever.
Dan Purcell: Right.
Dr. Corey Allan: then afterwards, hopefully I have the courage sooner rather than later to, what was that about? What was me?
You know, how do I, if I look at me here, what do I see that picture? And okay, well, yeah, that makes sense. Okay. So now I’m just more aware. And if I need to clean up anything, courageous move is to do it. Say, you know what, honey, I didn’t handle that well. And I feel like I even weaponized it. And don’t like that.
I don’t want to keep doing that.
Dan Purcell: Yeah, that’s good. I like that.
Dr. Corey Allan: different level of clean then, right? Because I’m [00:29:00] basically, the way Schnarch would say it is, I’m confronting myself in the presence of my spouse.
Dan Purcell: Uh-huh.
Dr. Corey Allan: Which that’s one of the most loving moves I can make
Dan Purcell: Yes.
Dr. Corey Allan: my spouse know I see me.
Dan Purcell: Yes.
Dr. Corey Allan: I don’t like all that I’m seeing too, right?
And
Dan Purcell: Right.
Dr. Corey Allan: necessarily about an apology at this point yet. This is more about, wait a second, I’m seeing what I’ve done here. And I don’t like that guy. So I think it might’ve been good judgment. You didn’t want to have s*x with that guy either. Because I don’t know if I would have.
Dan Purcell: That’s good. What I’m gaining from what you’re talking about is maybe I’ve heard it said before, the measure of a marriage isn’t how often things go well, it’s how do you handle when things aren’t going as well. That’s the real measure of a marriage. That’s when you’re put to the test. So it’s like, ” Oh, okay.
So if this isn’t going as well as I want it, then what do I do next?” That’s, that’s the measure. [00:30:00] It’s am I punishing? Am I, uh, all those things we’ve talked about, the, the dirty signals we send back
Dr. Corey Allan: Yeah, we use the phrase of a great marriage is defined by two people who recover better.
Dan Purcell: Yeah. Great.
Dr. Corey Allan: Because we’re, we
Dan Purcell: Getting covered.
Dr. Corey Allan: or feel alone or feel rejected or denied. And then also sometimes it’s even intentional on what we’ll do to each other. Like I’m intentionally trying to hurt you. And okay, wait, how do I recover from that? Because part of my recovery is acknowledging what happened too, and owning that, “Yeah, I, I shortcut that. I didn’t show up my best there. You’re right.” And that’s a different level of presence and a cleaner level of pressure
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Corey Allan: because all the other stuff just gets cloudy, and then it can be used against me so easily.
That’s the Jennifer Finlayson-Fife one of I’ll use where my spouse is wrong about me [00:31:00] to avoid where they’re right about me.
Dan Purcell: You can hide in that.
Right. Yeah. Good. Good. Good. Good. Let’s just do a little sidebar here. I’ve heard it once said- Lower desire spouses hate being called the lower desire spouse. They feel like lower means less or diminished in somehow. Um, what’s– Is there a better term? Is there a better way of thinking about that that’s not– doesn’t make you feel like you’re less than?
You’re the less
Dr. Corey Allan: I
Dan Purcell: person in the marriage.
Dr. Corey Allan: this is the, uh, first person I heard this from was Emily Nagoski’s work of the spontaneous and responsive.
Dan Purcell: Uh-huh.
Dr. Corey Allan: Um,
Dan Purcell: a better framework for them w-with that story.
Dr. Corey Allan: on, yeah, I need something to respond to. I’m okay with that. I like that as well. Uh, I love the comparativeness though too of it on just the lower/higher, because while I’m the higher desire in some areas of my marriage, I’m the [00:32:00] lower desire in others.
Dan Purcell: Yes.
Dr. Corey Allan: it’s not like we’re talking hierarchical here, right? Or
Dan Purcell: Yes. Yeah.
Dr. Corey Allan: that’s status or morally above or below or, you know, it’s not one up, one down. It’s just comparative. so the more there’s the terminology or framework that works, what… I mean, I, I have some clients that are exactly like what you’re describing of I’ve had a lower desire wife tell me flat out, “I don’t like that term.”
Okay. What if we go responsive? “I’m on board with that one.” Okay. Then I just gotta remember every time I’m working with them, wants responsive. Then I’ll just, yeah, we’ll use that as terms ’cause it, that’s, that fits too.
Dan Purcell: I’m glad we’re clarifying. We’re not talking about a hierarchy here. It’s just
Dr. Corey Allan: not even
Dan Purcell: one person cares more about something than the other does
Dr. Corey Allan: Yes.
Dan Purcell: this domain of the relationship, and across all domains, you’re not always gonna care about all of the domains
Dr. Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.
Dan Purcell: more than the other person. So [00:33:00] you have…
Dr. Corey Allan: very, very clear that, like the easiest example that’s at play in my marriage right now is Pam is the higher desire adventurer
Dan Purcell: Okay. Uh-huh.
Dr. Corey Allan: right? She loves
Dan Purcell: The travel.
Dr. Corey Allan: the travel, the go anywhere at any point, the eat at the hole-in-the-wall dives
Dan Purcell: Uh-huh.
Dr. Corey Allan: in cities we d- we’ve never been to.
She wants to find the most run-down… I’m being a little exaggerative here, but she loves the real, the real embedded cultural things. She loves those things.
Dan Purcell: Yes.
Dr. Corey Allan: enjoy those things, and in some instances I experience those things, which is less than enjoyment, but I’m the lower desire as it pertains to her in that. But what’s so interesting is the higher desire to want to go do these things, so I’m the lower. She’s the lower desire to actually lead towards these things, which makes me have to be the higher desire, but I’m not. And it’s
Dan Purcell: Uh-huh. “
Dr. Corey Allan: You’re on your own. If you want this, you gotta lead towards [00:34:00] it, love, uh, ’cause I’m not going to, ’cause it doesn’t mean the same
Dan Purcell: She wants that outcome, but she wants you to do the work to get you there.
Dr. Corey Allan: She wants
Dan Purcell: Yeah.
Dr. Corey Allan: us towards it,
Dan Purcell: Yes.
Dr. Corey Allan: I was the higher desire, but I’m not. And I think this is where a lot of higher desires miss the boat and realize the anxiety going on with them is just as insidious and heavy
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Corey Allan: as with a lower desire spouse on
Dan Purcell: And that’s why it’s not a hierarchy. Both sides have their , liabilities. There’s just as much liability being a, the higher desire spouse for s*x as there is being the lower desires for s*x.
Dr. Corey Allan: Right. ‘Cause the, th- we just experience them differently,
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Corey Allan: it’s understanding, how do I get a clearer picture of what my experience is in that dynamic,
Dan Purcell: Yeah.
Dr. Corey Allan: what I can if I
Dan Purcell: Yeah. Sounds like a
Dr. Corey Allan: then. It’s like, yeah, I know it’s gonna take me…
Like, uh, there’s a lot of the lower desire spouses I’ve worked [00:35:00] with that I know, from just our conversations that have talked about they’re much cleaner with the dynamic of the husband will be, “Hey, really love to connect And she can be, “I, I c- I could get on board, but I’m gonna need a little work.
I’m not there right now. I got a lot going on.” And so at least it’s very, very clear where I am. And so
Dan Purcell: responsible responsive.
Dr. Corey Allan: sometimes, sometimes sh- he’s like, “I got all the energy you need, baby. Let’s go,” right? “I’ll, I’ll take care of everything.” And sometimes he’s like, “Yeah, no. I don’t, I don’t have that kind of energy.” And they both go to bed, and neither one are holding each other hostage or feeling like I’ve got shafted or or, you know. There’s some hurt or disappointment maybe. But the point was they put it out there. They both were clean I mean, I’ve even had a couple from a long time ago, they’ve been to several getaways I love their terminology. Like he, he got to where he’d be, “I’m [00:36:00] interested in some s*x tonight, and I’m at about like an eight.” And her response was, “I’m on board, but I’m only like at a four.”
Dan Purcell: Uh-huh.
Dr. Corey Allan: and that’s just kind of as it pertains to the amount of energy and variety or passion or what er0ticism, whatever it is. So it’s kind of what makes sense. And he’s like, “Yeah, can we meet at a six?” You
Dan Purcell: Uh-huh.
Dr. Corey Allan: her to kind of just… Or she– he’s like, “I’m good with a four.” “Okay.” And then they can go. And now, what’s so interesting is that actually makes more overt what lots of couples do covertly
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Corey Allan: we wind up having s*x, but it wasn’t the level of eight that I wanted, and now I’m hurt because you didn’t put as much energy into it. Whereas, wait, I knew going in she only had about a level four going, right? And so
Dan Purcell: Yeah
Dr. Corey Allan: it’s very, very clear. I mean, this is where I’ve used the terms of with Pam of, “Hey, can I interest you in a little moderate to [00:37:00] mediocre level s*x tonight?” When it’s just been rough, long days. And she’s
Dan Purcell: Uh-huh. “
Dr. Corey Allan: When you put it that way, yes, ’cause I don’t have a whole lot of energy either.”
Dan Purcell: Uh-huh.
Dr. Corey Allan: But at least it’s cleaner about here’s what we’re heading towards. And so if it doesn’t, you know, hopefully we don’t hold something against somebody when I knew what we were signing up for.
Dan Purcell: Corey, this has been a great conversation. This is great. Clean signals, dirty signals. How do we respond? How do we react when we don’t get the answer we need? What kind of signals are we really sending? And just being a little more clean and owning things, and repair. We, we don’t always get it right. But giving yourself a little bit of grace here.
Like, “Oh, yeah, repair is available.” You just get faster and better at repair is… I love these ideas.
Dr. Corey Allan: And
Dan Purcell: It’s great.
Dr. Corey Allan: about how about I spend a little less energy trying to constantly read and monitor my spouse and be more aware of me?
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm. That’s good.
Dr. Corey Allan: on is she [00:38:00] gonna be interested? What are the… Is she there? When– And he, and she can be doing the same thing of, “Oh, he’s… Yeah, I know the clock’s been ticking. I know the, I know it’s been rough. I know it’s been a several day.” You know, it’s like, how about if I just handle myself and I let my spouse handle them?
Dan Purcell: Yeah. That seems a lot less stressful. A lot… An easy, an easier way to live, I guess.
Uh-huh.
Dr. Corey Allan: maybe, but I think there’s an element of there’s a reason I focus on my surroundings so much is because I’m not even really sure who I am, or
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Corey Allan: I’m constantly using my surroundings to help myself feel better, or these kinds of elements that are being exposed, which is all part of the whole differentiation journey of growing up, right?
That it’s this idea of, hey, how do I handle myself? And just become more settled in, in liking myself more.
Dan Purcell: Any advice on how to like yourself better? ‘Cause if you’re constantly using your environment to prop yourself up, you’re gonna work really hard to [00:39:00] control your environment so that I feel good about me, which isn’t always nice on the people around me. So it is learning how to like yourself, so you don’t depend so much on your surroundings.
Dr. Corey Allan: the, entirety of myself. We become so hyper-focused on just an aspect of us, right? Like a small thing. Like a, “Well, I’m scared of that,” or, “I have this fear,” or, “I have this trauma,” or, “I have something that’s a baggage,” quote-unquote, “that’s a negative.” And I
Dan Purcell: Yep.
Dr. Corey Allan: so fixated just on that, that I don’t see, wait a second, look at the entirety of life I’ve built. at what else we have, right? I get so focused on a goal, I miss the journey. And, and so it’s realizing, wait, I need to see all of me. And, ’cause then it’s a lot more harmonious in how I handle me, [00:40:00] I, and I can go to where I like parts of me, even the negative parts of me, ’cause they actually could cultivate and create something really good.
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Corey Allan: it… I mean, You’ve been working with couples for a while now,
Dan Purcell: Yeah.
Dr. Corey Allan: I’ve been doing this for twenty-five years now, and I will confirm what I’ve heard other colleagues that have been doing this a long time say. The couples or the people that will look their darkness in the eye, look their, their bad, quote-unquote, their, their
Dan Purcell: Yeah. Uh-huh.
Dr. Corey Allan: in the eye really face it are the most courageous people in the planet.
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Corey Allan: Because there’s nothing’s gonna shake them, because it’s like, know, if Pam comes at me with something that used to be a, a darkness
Dan Purcell: Insecurity in you? Uh-huh. Yeah.
Dr. Corey Allan: I’ve owned it, and I’ve, I’ve kinda settled myself with it. Yeah, I know it’s there. I don’t like when it’s weaponized. I don’t like when it’s running amok, but I know it’s there. And if she looked me in the eye, and she goes, “I can’t believe you, you reacted that way,”
Dan Purcell: Uh-huh.
Dr. Corey Allan: I, I have [00:41:00] a better likelihood of being able to look her square in the eye and in all calmness say, “I can’t either.
Dan Purcell: Mm.
Dr. Corey Allan: What
Dan Purcell: Yeah.
Dr. Corey Allan: Right? I
Dan Purcell: Yeah.
Dr. Corey Allan: else? Come on. I’ll absorb that ’cause it’s true.
Dan Purcell: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Dr. Corey Allan: That was not a good spot.
You’re right.
Dan Purcell: Yeah.
Dr. Corey Allan: And now all of a sudden, we’re dealing with things completely differently,
Dan Purcell: Mm-hmm. Y-
Dr. Corey Allan: that there are broken, quote-unquote, fault parts of me, because all of us have it
Dan Purcell: yeah. Yeah, it’s good. So it is that courage to face the aspects of me that I don’t like. At the same time, don’t give it disproportionate weight. Let’s look at the whole here. like, uh, the twenty-first century, there’s a lot of hyperindividualism, right? Hyper-focus on self.
Dr. Corey Allan: Yeah.
Dan Purcell: I think of no other age in history where, like, the [00:42:00] word identity has Meant so much to people , right?
And that’s the hierarchy of things, right? We put so much of certain aspects of ourselves at, at such higher priority compared to maybe something that’s a little more balanced with everything else. I– That’s, that’s a great approach to… And I think a person that can really lean into, “No, I, I do do a lot of good.
I have good in me, too, and I like these parts. I have gifts, I have talents.
Dr. Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.
Dan Purcell: has blessed me with these things, too.”
Dr. Corey Allan: Mm-hmm.
Dan Purcell: mean you have to have all gifts, all talents in order to have any value, ’cause we– just be real here. We’re all, we’re all, like, works in progress. But I can still settle down and like myself,
Dr. Corey Allan: Right. I
Dan Purcell: I like…
Dr. Corey Allan: I can get better at taking my shape, whatever that uniqueness is. I take
Dan Purcell: Yeah.
Dr. Corey Allan: better, which also means the flaws and the, the wounds and the bruises [00:43:00] and the
Dan Purcell: It’s just part of it. Yeah.
Dr. Corey Allan: of it. That’s part of
Dan Purcell: Gives it character.
Dr. Corey Allan: yeah, I just came across this within the last year of talking about our lives are, beautiful stained glass. Because if you’re gonna make stained glass, you gotta break things,
Dan Purcell: Yeah. That’s right, and put it back together.
Dr. Corey Allan: you make is so much more beautiful
Dan Purcell: And you use lead sometimes for that, which is not a little toxic material. But it holds it all together. That’s good. Mm-hmm. I like that very much. So tell us, you have a special gift for our listeners. Tell us about this, miniature course that you have and, your project you have working on.
Dr. Corey Allan: Yeah. So if you go to SMR, which is, stands for Sexy Marriage Radio, so smr.fm/gofirst, uh, it gets you access for free to a healthy marriage course that I’ve got. There… It’s like six videos. They’re about six or seven minutes long, and it’s just talking about some aspects of what a healthy [00:44:00] marriage is and how to view and keep this sustainable.
Because to me, like we’re describing through this whole conversation, healthy m- doesn’t mean smooth
Dan Purcell: Uh-huh.
Dr. Corey Allan: It just means I’m, I’m a, I’m a work in progress. I’m becoming better. And so th- that’s out there and available. and all this is a precursor in a lot of ways to the launch of the book I’ve got coming out in the fall, called Go First, which The subtitle is How One Person Can Change Every Relationship in Their Life.
Dan Purcell: like that.
Dr. Corey Allan: and it’s just the concept of know what needs to happen, I know there’s change that needs to happen, but far too often I’m waiting for someone else to go first, and I’m gonna wait a long, long time most of the time when that– when I take that stance. So how do I find the courage be the one that goes first, to, to act first, to, to change, what– for what was better in my life and in hopefully ours? And [00:45:00] so it’s just… It’s a framework. It’s lots of good application, a good metaphor all the way through to help make sense of this. Mm. And, uh, it’s one I’m quite proud of.
This, this has been a fun, fun project, and I’m ready to get it out in the world.
Dan Purcell: Awesome. Good. Look forward to reading that. I look forward to checking out your resource, and everyone listening, go check that out too, smr.fm/gofirst. And I’ll have the link in the show notes.
Dr. Corey Allan: Thank you for listening to this episode. If this has been helpful for you and you think you could use a little bit of help to just accelerate progress and growth in your relationship, or maybe you and your spouse are really stuck on something that’s maybe very private, maybe something s*xual that you’d like help with, maybe it’s a desire discrepancy in your relationship, reach out to me and my team.
This is what we do. We’re professionals at helping couples. We’re counselors. We’re, we’re coaches, and we can coach you through these things. you’ll find how to contact me at getyourmarriageon.com. Meanwhile, thank you [00:46:00] for listening. Go remember the signals that you send to your spouse. Make them clean.
Maybe come to our upcoming retreat also. Meanwhile, share this podcast with your friends and, uh, go get your own marriage on. Thanks again. Talk to you next week
