We don’t just want sex.
We want sexual experiences that move us.
We want to walk out of the bedroom different than when we walked in.
But somewhere along the way, sex can become… predictable. Scripted. Routine.
In Part 1 of my guest appearance on Charlene Byers’s podcast, we cover the following:
- The truth about sexual desire discrepancy (and why it’s not a problem)
- How performance pressure quietly kills connection
- Two different reasons we give pleasure, and why one of them doesn’t work
- What men and women are most turned on by
- What men and women are turned off by
You’ll also hear one of my own vulnerable marriage missteps and what it taught me about anxiety, meaning-making, and true intimacy.
👉 In Part 2, we go deeper into honesty, integrity, and the hard conversations that create real intimacy. Don’t miss it.
Resources and Events
- Don’t miss this amazing opportunity to love and make love with your spouse better, TONIGHT! Next Level Loving: A Virtual Intimacy Getaway (Feb 13-14): https://getyourmarriageon.com/next-levels-virtual-lovemaking-retreat
- Intimately Us & Just Between Us apps: https://getyourmarriageon.com/our-apps/
- Get Your Marriage On Coaching Program: https://getyourmarriageon.com/program/
- Get Your Marriage On Cruise: https://getyourmarriageon.com/cruise/
- We had a cancellation for our retreat in the spring! Snatch this spot while you can! https://getyourmarriageon.com/couples-retreat/
Disclaimer: The opinions and values expressed by guests on the Get Your Marriage On! podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions and values of the host. Appearance on the podcast does not imply an endorsement of the guest or their products by Get Your Marriage On or its host. While we work hard to bring you quality and valuable content, listeners are encouraged to use their own best judgment in applying the information or products discussed on this podcast.
Transcript
This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors or inaccuracies. For the most accurate and complete experience, we recommend listening to the full podcast episode.
Guest on Charlene’s Podcast Love Stories
Dan: [00:00:00] we want sexual experiences that move us. We want sexual experiences that change us. We wanna come out of the bedroom, a different person. Then when we came in, we want transcendence. we want to experience something that’s special, that’s different. /
Dan : Pause for a moment and think, when’s the last time I felt really turned on? Okay. Are you thinking about that? Anyway, I hope that question and the memory that came to you brought a smile to your face. What about your spouse? When’s the last time he or she was highly aroused and engaged? What can we [00:01:00] learn from research and experiences of men and women that can inform how we can better love and desire our spouse?
By the end of this episode, you’ll walk away with actionable insights into how Turnon works for you and your spouse in your marriage. You can use these tips I share to enjoy a sexier marriage right away. Last year I had the honor of being a guest on Charlene Byers Love Stories podcast, where we discussed this topic among many other topics related to enjoying a sexy marriage.
Understanding and loving and desiring well through our sexuality is the challenge and opportunity we all enjoy in our marriages, and I’m looking forward to you hearing this conversation today.
Now, before we begin , I do want to point out that we have our April in-person couples retreat. It’s been sold out for months, but we did have a last minute cancellation.
It’s two months away. If you’re interested in coming, please apply now and you might be able to get in and take this spot that just opened up. Furthermore, we have [00:02:00] our first Get Your Marriage on Cruise Setting Sale this October. This is a great opportunity to implement all the principles we talk about on our podcast.
It’s gonna be a little bit sexier ’cause we’re bringing on a Boor photographer. And we have some other fun things planned. You get to meet with me and my team on the sea days. So you get a vacation with us and do a deep dive on intimacy in your marriage. It’s gonna be a really fun and sexy experience for you and your spouse.
You’ll find those details in the show notes or on our website at get Your Marriage on.com also. So ready? Here we go.
Charlene: Please help me to welcome Dan Purcell. Woo hoo. when I first, um, had an opportunity to actually meet you, you know, we had our pre-interview.
Both: Yeah.
Charlene: I was just blown away by this work that you’re doing and how important it is.
Mm-hmm. And. I think this is really going to resonate with a lot of people because I find it also interesting how [00:03:00] you can get people, you know, people love and they’re fall in love and they’re getting married and they don’t actually talk about sex.
Dan: No. And Right.
Charlene: They don’t talk about sex. If they’re in that place right now and they’re like, huh, what do you mean? You know, they’re like, what do you mean we, we have sex?
Um, take me back to that phase of your marriage. Okay. Obviously, ’cause you were in that phase of your marriage and then you went to another phase of your marriage. Sure. What was it like, like that? So people can, you know, really reference that.
Dan: So I don’t think it’s like a, I don’t think it’s like a wrong thing.
Charlene: Mm-hmm.
Dan: And we can get into the deeper reasons for it later if you want to, but Yeah. Early on in a relationship it’s supposed to feel good. It’s supposed to feel very mutual. And there’s a lot of reciprocity, right. So early on, even if you do talk about sex, it’s usually in terms of finding your overlaps of what you both like.
Charlene: Okay.
Dan: Which is a good thing And if the other person doesn’t like [00:04:00] something that you’re kind of interested and you’re like, oh yeah, yeah, you’re right. I don’t like that either. Because their goal is to find the overlap. So let’s say person A wants to do some sexual behavior and B’S a little uncomfortable with it, it’s natural for a to kinda, okay, nevermind.
We’ll focus on the other things. So there’s so much still common ground. but as the marriage progresses and you start to experience, let, let’s just talk about the things you do in the bedroom. Okay. It tend, it tends to be predictable. Okay. It tends to be a little routine.
There’s a script and there’s nothing wrong with that per se, but there is a reason why people joke about a seven year itch or a three year itch or whatever the joke is, right? Okay. Yeah. That’s because there’s some truth to the idea that. It can get a little boring. And it’s not because you married the wrong person.
It’s because the boringness is there to set you up for your next phase of your relationship, that if you choose to accept this mission invites you into another level, but there’s a [00:05:00] leap to be made, and that’s difficult for a lot of couples, myself included. Okay. Okay. To set them two and, um, so early on.
Okay. It’s supposed to be a little more easy, a little more, little more
Charlene: easy. A little more. Okay. That makes sense. Yeah. Right
Dan: Now, of course, there are cases where there are couples that have maybe, a history of sexual abuse or a history of maybe with a past partner where sexual experiences were not enjoyable.
Okay. Or there not, might need to be some more disclosures that are gonna be, healthy. Mm-hmm. So that there’s a. a place of trust in the relationship like that needs to be there early on in relationships. So you need to talk about those things, I believe. ’cause that’ll set you up for more success later.
Right, You don’t wanna have surprises or like, ha you said I do. I locked you in now. Yeah, now you have to love me no matter what. See, you said I do, regardless of whether I was truthful to you or not. Like that’s not a good, setup for the marriage either. So that’s true.
Um, uh, but generally I think, uh, it’s [00:06:00] okay to have not a lot of, uh, differences, at least in the beginning when it comes to this. Okay.
Charlene: Okay, so that’s pretty much what you’re saying is a normal overall Could be progression, I could say. It’s okay. Okay. Right. So then in your personal experience, but then obviously you’ve helped so many people, what have you noticed?
Is the shift in the change. So if that is, you know, let’s say you have couples and that’s kind of like their normal, and, and you’re right, a lot of couples, and it’s not a bad thing, it’s just what kind of happens. They have the routine, like you said, kind of just stays the same. So it’s not necessarily like couples are not having sex, it’s just, it’s just eh, sometimes.
Dan: Yeah. The def does that kind of loop. Yeah. I think especially the older we get.
Charlene: Okay.
Dan: And the longer you’ve been with the person, we want sexual experiences that move us. We want sexual experiences that change us. We wanna come out of the bedroom, a different person. Then when we came in, we want [00:07:00] transcendence. we want to experience something that’s special, that’s different. So, if the sex or having is kind of, and as you use the word routine, there’s nothing wrong with routine.
Yeah. I wanna be clear. Yes. It’s just that there’s not a lot of depth of soul with routine
Charlene: Yeah. It’s, there’s not a depth of soul when you’re, when it’s just routine all the time. Right, right,
Dan: right. Uhhuh, yeah.
Charlene: You’re talking about something different. You’re not just talking about the physical act.
You’re, you’re going deeper, which
Dan: is Yeah, we’re bringing our heart to this. Yeah, yeah, exactly. This is
Charlene: hard. Yeah. We’re like, you guys get ready, get ready. We’re not just talking. And I think that is really important that you’re saying that. I think there is something too with the longer you’ve been with someone, the older that you get.
Mm-hmm. And maybe. What you craved or needed in the beginning is not what you need further along. I got that right. Yeah, exactly. And, and we change, you know, [00:08:00] life happens. Mm-hmm. Things happen, right? Yeah. Okay. So what you are talking about is when it comes to routine, we’re specifically talking about routine in the way of, you know, the actual initiating
Dan: Yeah.
Uhhuh initiating
Charlene: kind of like, you know, that kind of stuff. Yeah. Okay.
Dan: How, how you know you’re gonna start and how, you know you’re gonna end and everything in between. Okay. Yeah. Uhhuh.
Charlene: Okay. That’s kinda your routine. Mm-hmm. And another thing, a routine is not really talking about some changes we can do.
Right. Like, you know, usually, you know, people don’t talk about that. Yes. That, that could be a routine that we don’t usually talk about. You know, if you’re like, you know, if you like this, if you don’t like this, if there’s something you wanna try. And then another thing that you’re talking about is, I truly believe this too.
And this is. I love this part. Yes. Sex is obviously, can be physical, you know, but sex, there’s so many different layers. Yes. There’s, there’s, there’s the physical part and there is that real connection [00:09:00] s intimacy part. So let’s keep going there with that. I know you were, I just Okay.
Sounds
Dan: good. Okay. I can give you an example of a time. It’s not my best moment. I kind of messed up. Alright.
Charlene: It’s okay. Dan. Thank you for being vulnerable.
Dan: Yeah. So I told you the story of how we like, you know, discovered, hey, sex can be really good for our marriage. Right. Okay. So fast forward a few years and, we’ve like cleared one level. It’s like the old video game. You cleared one level, now you’re on your next level. Okay. And now, now we’ve got a more difficult challenge that we run into. Okay. And this’s a challenge that’s very common. Almost every couple has it. And that sexual desire discrepancy.
Charlene: Okay, that makes sense. One person
Dan: just wants sex more than the other. And any marriage, you’re gonna have someone that wants it more than the other. And that’s not a bug, it’s not a problem unless you turn it into a problem like I just did.
Charlene: Ooh, okay.
Dan: Okay. So
i’ll tell this story. Okay. So, kind of in true nerd fashion, in our walk-in [00:10:00] closet, we have a calendar and I’d Mark Little symbols with, you know, she, my wife and I would do this too, of every time we, we made love, okay? And different symbols meant different things, and. I was also keeping track of how often she had an orgasm, and one day I was looking at the poster, I’m like, holy cow, I have a really bad batting average.
This is my batting average. This is really poor because it’s, you were really keeping track.
Charlene: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. It’s way more
Dan: me than her and I really wanted more parody or, or maybe no women have deeper sexual capacity than men. Generally speaking. I want her to have even more than I do. Like, I think that’s really important.
So I unilaterally took it upon myself to, let’s fix this. Let’s get, let’s get this up. So during sex, guess what my focus is on
Charlene: her,
Dan: her and her performance.
Charlene: Yes.
Dan: And when the littlest thing doesn’t go [00:11:00] right. Oh, we just, there it goes again. Like we, we, I messed up. We messed up. This isn’t gonna work. And then my poor wife.
Right. She felt like a project.
Both: Right.
Dan: Is that a meaning that’s like exciting to be in? Like she thinks if I don’t have an orgasm, he’s gonna feel like he’s a failure. I need to have an orgasm here. And you’re trying and trying, can you try to have an orgasm if you really try for it? No.
Charlene: Right, right. No, no,
Dan: no.
It’s like trying to force yourself to fall asleep. The more you’re trying to like sleep, the more elusive it becomes. Right. Right. That’s how orgasm is, right? Yes. And then so she’s frustrated and I’m frustrated and she’s frustrated and I’m frustrated. I’m frustrated that she’s frustrated. So sex turns into
Both: Yes.
A
Dan: it’s not, it’s not a loving meaning anymore. Yeah. Sex has now turned into a place where we both, either wanna rush through it just to get it over and done with just to say we did it. [00:12:00] Okay. Or it’s a place where we both go to feel bad. That’s not an inviting meaning. No,
Charlene: that’s really interesting that you’re saying that.
’cause I can see that
Dan: that’s just like an example, right?
Charlene: Yeah, that’s a good example. So that’s
Dan: like two folks on performance.
Charlene: Okay.
Dan: but couples do this all the time. And it’s normal. And normal. Meaning it’s very common. Very common. Yeah. ’cause we, it is, as human beings, we are meaning making machines. It’s impossible to have an experience without driving some meaning from it.
Even the phrase, oh my life is meaningless is a meaning.
Charlene: Meaning, okay. Yeah. There’s a
Dan: meaning attached to it. You can’t have sex without making meaning from, from your experience. Right.
Charlene: Okay.
Dan: Uh, seeing him aroused, seeing her aroused or not aroused. We all make meanings from this. So. When you start to really peel, peel back the onions and you want, uh, the peel back, the onion layers and get deeper into your sexual relationship, it’s an examination on what are the meanings that are [00:13:00] alive in our sexual relationship.
And they often, your whole marriage is a dynamic. All the meanings between the two of you show up sexually in some way or another. So it’s like sex is a microcosm of the, the whole marriage dynamic that you have of life.
Charlene: Wow. That’s good. That’s fascinating. ’cause the, the intimacy that connection or whatever’s going on really does play a part in,
Dan: it shows up.
You can’t hide it in sex. You can’t
Charlene: hide it.
Dan: No. It’s ’cause sex is so core to who we are. It’s so personal and it’s probably the most vulnerable thing we ever do as a human with another human. you can’t hide it there.
Charlene: You can’t hide it. Okay. So talk to me about that. when you started getting curious and started discovering, oh wow, now I’m noticing, you know, something that you had good intentions.
You’re like, oh, I want her to also, you know, be pleasurable when it came to those conversations, what was [00:14:00] your wife saying? Like, what, you know, when you guys, was this before you guys were really talking or this was after
Dan: we were talking?
Charlene: This is after. Okay.
Dan: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So,
Charlene: okay. So when you started noticing that, what was something that you needed to do to shift out of that? Was it a. Another deeper conversation
Dan: is a series of things. Okay. One really helpful thought is I’m a kind of a goal oriented guy, which gets me in trouble in this case.
Right? Okay. My wife having an orgasm is a goal.
Both: Okay. Goals
Dan: are good. Goals drive you in life, but have you ever set a goal on something that you have absolutely no control over? It’s, it’s a ridiculous idea, but some people do it, right? Yes. Like, I’m gonna make a goal that tomorrow’s gonna be a sunny day when it’s been rainy all week.
Like it’s outta my control. I, I don’t set the rules for that. That makes sense. What clicked to my mind is I don’t give my wife an orgasm. She gives herself an orgasm. Wow. On a biological level, orgasm is a [00:15:00] reflex, like a sneeze. You get enough stimulation right way, and your body has a reflex, you go into orgasm.
Right. even, she doesn’t have direct control. Like you can’t make yourself sneeze on demand. Well, maybe you can set the right conditions. Sniff, I don’t know, cracked black pepper or something
Charlene: maybe. Yeah. Very
Dan: particular nose. Right. But it’s, that reflex I don’t provide it for her. I don’t give it to her.
And so I was setting a goal on something that I don’t have direct control over.
Charlene: Oh. And whenever you
Dan: set yourself a goal on something you don’t have control over, you’re gonna be anxious. And my anxiety goes up in sex because I don’t look anxious. Like I’m a, you know, I got it all put together. Yes. But below the surface, my wife is tracking me.
She’s like, he’s, he’s really anxious about what’s going on in here. And anxiety is very contagious. Emotion. If I’m anxious. People around me get anxious really quick. Right? So my wife is now anxious ’cause I’m anxious and those meanings aren’t good. So I had to learn how [00:16:00] to stop being anxious and sex.
Both: Okay. I had to learn
Dan: how to let go and just to enjoy my wife, because my wife is my wife. And all of her and just the amazing, beautiful, and incredible woman she is, and to appreciate it and just I’m here to celebrate us and just to be real in the moment. And to just enjoy her.
Just to enjoy her, not for what she does for me or what she produces, right? Or how much her orgasm feeds my ego, right? You had to take my ego out of all this and that was a mindset shift that helped me through that specific challenge.
Charlene: Ooh, I like that you said that.
Mm-hmm. Even though you are, with your person, your lover, of course, you, you also want that person to have pleasure, you know, and when married couples, if you’re having, you know, sexual intercourse, we all think pleasure is overall the actual orgasm, right?
Yeah. Yeah.
Dan: I mean, orgasms are great, by the way. They’re very pleasurable.
Charlene: Yeah. Um, no, but, but ultimately it’s kind of like they, we feel that [00:17:00] that’s the ultimate, the end result. An orgasm.
Dan: Yeah. Yeah. Most couples, that’s how know sex is over. I we had our orgasms we’re done. Yes. Uhhuh. Yes. Great.
Charlene: So I think because I, that’s why we’re having this conversation today to start shifting.
Yes. How we’re thinking. That’s why we’re having this conversation.
Okay. So when couples are thinking that, and I’ve heard this too, and I’m not, I’m speaking for men, but I’m not a man, but I’ve heard this too. It is very important and it drives a man that. His, his lady, you know, is having an orgasm and is having pleasure, right? Yeah. Yeah. So speak on that and the difference between you truly as a man, because we, we process different.
Mm-hmm. You do want your wife to, you know, enjoy yourself and have pleasure, but the difference between that and what you’re talking about now and then before with the ego.
Dan: Okay. If you [00:18:00] track closely, it’s the behavior is the same. Okay. Same emotions, but the motivation is different.
Charlene: Mm.
Dan: So in the scenario where I was doing it wrong, do I want my wife to have pleasure?
Yes. Okay. But why do I want my wife to have this pleasure? If I’m really honest? It’s to improve my batting average so that I feel better about me.
Charlene: Okay.
Dan: So there’s, there’s a little bit of, um, extracting from her. To feed me in it. And that is very different than giving my wife pleasure because I love her and ’cause it’s fun to see her light up like a Christmas tree, like giving her that pleasure because I love her.
The motive is very different.
Charlene: Same
Dan: behavior, and you’re onto something. If you look at journal entries of men that write out their peak sexual experiences, their favorite sexual experiences, nine times outta 10, they [00:19:00] hardly mention their own orgasm. It’s all about her. It’s all about her experience. And I think that’s a very healthy part of male sexuality.
And, and, um, if you want, let’s do a little sidebar on Okay. On, on this. So you ask men what turns you on the most they’re gonna answer to be with a turned on woman. Uh, being with a turned on woman is the most, uh, exciting meaning for a man. You ask a woman what’s, uh, what turns you on the most, they’re not gonna say, being with a turned on man.
Right. For most women, seeing a man fully aroused isn’t like,
Both: it’s not like, yeah,
Dan: no. But for a woman it is. Knowing she is a turnon, right? Yeah. Yes. So for a woman, it’s like, I am the reason why he is turned on. Correct. If she feels that that is an [00:20:00] arousing meaning for her.
Charlene: Yes.
Dan: In other words, in, and I say this jokingly, almost.
Good, healthy sexuality for, for women is narcissistic.
Charlene: Right? It’s like
Dan: I am the center of attention. I turn him on and I, I am so beautiful, or I am so whatever the meaning is that’s helpful in that moment, right? Yeah. That he can’t help himself. Like that is a very empowering meaning in sex. The reason why that’s empowering for women is if you look at cultural norms in general, women are more the caretaker type.
Charlene: Mm-hmm.
Dan: Men are more the protector type. Mm-hmm. So in sex, really good sex for a woman is when she doesn’t have to be the caretaker anymore.
Charlene: That’s so good.
Dan: In sex, like in the story with my wife, she has to caretake. This is different than taking care. That’s good. Taking care, the heart’s, right? [00:21:00] Okay. Yeah.
This is caretaking. This is like, almost maternalistic, right? She has to caretake my ego. Oh, I need to have an orgasm in order for my husband to feel good. Oh, oh, that’s so good. Like, right, there’s, there’s this, caretaking energy. I hear other women say, if I don’t give him sex, then he’s going to blank.
Like, look at porn or deviate, right? That’s caretaking energy. Men do this too. men will say to their wives like, Hey, you have no problem being out with your friends, or You have no problem scrolling on social media for an hour. How come you can’t give me 10 minutes? Like,
Both: oh yeah, they’re
Dan: inviting caretaking energy out of their life and it’s a bad formula for sex.
Charlene: Okay?
Dan: So you want great sexual scenarios where she doesn’t have to caretake. She can be taken care of, she can be pampered, she can be the center of attention, she can be the turn on. But not care. Take.
Charlene: Oh, that’s so, oh, Mr. Dan. Woo. [00:22:00] When you say it like that, wow. That is such a difference.
Dan: It is different. Oh.
Charlene: You know, my listeners are like, yeah, Dan, that’s what I want. They’re like, sign me up. Sign me up for that. Okay. Okay. Flip it for the man now.
Dan: Okay. For the man, remember, his biggest turn on is to be with a woman who is turned on. His social role is being protector. So he needs to get out of protector mode.
Like she needs to get outta caretaker mode. He needs to get outta protector mode,
Charlene: right?
Dan: So if I know I’m with, uh, my wife and she’s loving it, she’s into it, she’s like, more, more, more. Yes, yes, yes. don’t stop. I don’t have to protect her. But if, if I have to, like for a lot of men who all of a sudden lose desire for sex, not all of them, but in some marriages, whenever this happens, [00:23:00] the scenario is set up where she’s too fragile, I need to tiptoe around her.
I need to be careful with her. See, that’s inviting that protector energy and is anti erotic for him. So he loses desire for sex with her, because those meanings are alive in their relationship.
He participates in this meeting too, so it’s not all on her. Okay. Another way this shows up.
Could be don’t tell me about your problems husband. Like you’re supposed to be the tough one. You’re supposed to be strong. You’re supposed to be immune to stress. You’re just be immune to things. Like, I really don’t wanna know about what’s in your heart. Like, I don’t wanna know you. or he thinks she doesn’t wanna know me.
I need to protect her from parts of me that if she knew shed be unhappy with me. So when we do engage, I’m just showing her parts of me that I want her to see, you know, metaphorically speaking to hide, to protect her from reality. Mm. But you can’t really make love to [00:24:00] someone that you can’t really be your whole self with.
Charlene: Correct. That’s good, Dan. Yes. So,
Dan: Couples do kind of over time, these kinds of dynamics play out well. They, they don’t even think that, they don’t even realize it. They’re not even
Charlene: thinking about it. That, okay? Yeah. Okay. So let’s talk about that. So, what you’re saying, as you said, it’s, it’s just very normal how this kind of just goes into this pattern, right?
Yes. Because we’re not, we’re not having these conversations. Well, we’re gonna change it now, Dan. That’s why we, why we’re having these conversations.
So you can have these conversations with your partner, right, Dan? Yes. So you can start changing things up. This is so cool. I can see easily how both the man and the woman will get in a position that they’re not really able to be vulnerable.
Dan: Right.
Charlene: Talk. So let’s talk about vulnerability, that type of. Intimacy.
Dan: Yeah. Yeah.
Charlene: [00:25:00] That can start happening when we start shifting that way. What is that? What, what, what is that other beautiful layer down?
Dan: Well, when you’re talking, I thought of, Jesus’s teaching in his Sermon on the Mount about, okay, we’d like to look at the spec in other people’s eyes, but ignore the, the beam in our own eye.
Right. We can’t see clearly, but we can see the, you can see the littlest flaw in other people. Yes. In the psychology research, there’s a lot of truth to the fact that we can map, or map is the word they use. It means you can track, you can kinda sense what’s going on in other people’s minds more clearly than what’s in your own mind.
Okay. In other words. Okay. My wife can track that. It’s an ego trip for me. Okay. When she orgasms far more clearly than I can track it in my own mind. Likewise, there are things I can track in my wife a lot more clearly than she can track in her own mind [00:26:00] too, because that’s just the way our brains work.
Our brains hate feeling wrong. And we’re very good at that self-deception aspect. So sometimes what you need is to have an honest conversation.
Charlene: Okay.
Dan: And, uh, learning how to have difficult conversations is a lifelong skill and sometimes. It’s appropriate to bring in a third view, like a neutral third, someone who’s trained in this, someone who is, good, and someone who would speak truth to both of you, that you can both kind of trust.
And that’s what I believe. Coaching or therapy, like if you have a good therapist or a good coach, like there’s bad ones out there too. But yes, like a good one. Their job is to really help bring more truth to the table, bring more things to the surface It’s like naming the elephant in the room that you both don’t wanna see.
Um, sometimes that kind of a process helps you get to those deeper layers.
Charlene: Okay. /
Dan: Thank you for listening to part one. Now continue on to [00:27:00] listen to part two, and here’s a little preview of what you’re gonna find in the part two of this conversation with Charlene Byers. / It’s like we need to change the way we have sex. When you initiate, 11:00 PM on a Friday night when I’m really tired, of course I say no, but you ask at a time that I’m really tired and I feel guilty. ’cause I keep telling you no.
So I wanna tell you yes, then the sex is crappy. But it also makes me wonder why you’re asking me at such a time, and I can only think that it’s probably because you’re more interested in proving that. you’re justified in your position of being the martyr here, being the one always turned down and feeling rejected rather than really wanting to be with me.
Ooh,
Charlene: ooh.
Dan: That’s hard to hear.
Charlene: Yes, [00:28:00]
