EmbedEdit
I used to think the word erotic was associated with unsavory things like X-rated films, Las Vegas billboards, or sites are not supposed to visit online. But the more I’ve done this work with myself and in my marriage and with other couples, the more I’ve come to love eroticism.
The root word for erotic is the Greek word eros, which literally means desire.
Plato, a Greek philosopher, taught that eros is more than just sexual desire; it’s the life force, passionate power that drives individuals to pursue beauty wisdom and even the divine. When you live with this eros feeling, it invites you to yearn for something beyond yourself, close gaps, seek intimacy, and to reach a higher, more spiritual level of love.
Sexual eroticism then are those things that give your intimate moments in your marriage, meaning yearning for closeness and ultimately makes your marriage fill alive and growing and to have love worth making. By that definition. It’s no wonder that red light districts X-rated films and brothels are actually anti-erotic, because when you think of it, those aren’t full of that life force. They are full of misery and loneliness instead.
Anyway, I’ve come to appreciate that every person has things that they find erotic. What we find sexually exciting is as unique as our fingerprints. In this episode, I’m joined by sex therapist, Jessa Zimmerman. And this episode, we’ll talk about what eroticism is, why erotic fantasies are important, and how to work through the challenges that couples face in sharing and negotiating sexual fantasies. We’ll also discuss tips for building a stronger marriage through your God-given eroticism.
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Are you struggling with how to explore your eroticism? Our new and improved Sexploration List can help! Rank your own preferences and desires in 13 different areas and explore and talk about those things together. You’ll discover where your desires intersect and maybe get some ideas you both like, but have never thought of!
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Transcript
Dan: I used to think the word erotic was associated with unsavory things like X-rated films, Las Vegas, billboards, or sites are not supposed to visit online, but the more I’ve done this work with myself and in my marriage and with other couples, the more I’ve come to love eroticism. The root word for erotic is the Greek word arrows, which literally means desire.
Plato, a Greek philosopher taught that arrows is more than just sexual desire. It’s the life force powerful, passionate power that drives individuals to pursue beauty wisdom and even the divine. When you live with this arrows feeling, it invites you to yearn for something beyond yourself, close gaps, seek intimacy, and to reach a higher, more spiritual level of love. Sexual eroticism then are those things that give your intimate moments in your marriage, meaning yearning for closeness and ultimately makes your marriage fill alive and growing and to have love worth making. [00:01:00] By that definition. It’s no wonder that red light districts X-rated films and brothels are actually anti erotic because when you think of it, Those aren’t full of that life force.
It’s full of misery and loneliness instead. Anyway, I’ve come to appreciate that every person has things that they find erotic. What we find sexually exciting is as unique as our fingerprints. In this episode, I’m joined by sex therapist, Jessa Zimmerman. And this episode, we’ll talk about what eroticism is, why erotic fantasies are important and how to work through the challenges that couples face in sharing and negotiating sexual fantasies. We’ll also discuss tips for building a stronger marriage through your God-given eroticism.
Our first annual kiddo on athon is in full swing.
This is a fundraiser for couples struggling with infertility to hopefully have a baby by next year, Christmas. So we’ve nicknamed it. Get frisky for fertility. [00:02:00] Every time you and your spouse get horizontal. This December, you can pledge say a dollar, a hundred percent of it will go towards worthy couples that want to get their families started.
And it’s a hundred percent deductible as it goes through a 5 0 1 C3 charity organization. See the link in the show notes for all the details. And please pledge today. We are excited about our upcoming couples retreat. Next March, if you haven’t heard this retreat in March is a fantastic opportunity for you and your spouse to draw closer together and do a deep dive on intimacy in your marriage.
We are planning only one in-person retreat for 2025. So you don’t want to miss it. Sierra website, get your marriage on.com for details.
Jessa, welcome back to the Get Your Marriage On podcast. You’ve been here before. I’m so honored to have you back on here as a guest. It is so nice to be here. It’s fun to go back and forth on our podcast,
Jessa: you know? yes, and we got to talk about a really fun topic today about eroticism. But [00:03:00] first, in case people don’t know you very well, I think a great question to ask, uh, icebreaker question is, tell me about your upbringing and how it relates to what you do today.
Yeah, so I am a certified sex therapist and I don’t think it’s a coincidence that I grew up in a very sex positive household. In my experience, sex therapists either come from a very sex positive place or, you know, the opposite of that, like some real sexual trauma or sexual shame or whatever,
either way. but I found myself really drawn to the work after really struggling In my marriage
back then and we actually ended up divorced and I didn’t know there’s anything we could do about this and all of that and then I was really committed to helping other couples avoid that same fate.
Dan: Gotcha. So tell me more about the sex positive upbringing, what, what was positive about it?
Jessa: Well, my parents were always super open about sex, willing to answer any question, no shame, no, you know, I certainly got the, the vibe that this was a wonderful thing and a part of life. My [00:04:00] mom actually volunteered at an organization. It was great. It was sort of like Planned Parenthood.
Like they did a lot of, she got involved in sex education. They were doing healthcare for people. They were doing outreach, all this different stuff. And so she would bring home the baskets of, uh, you know,
Dan: The samples.
Jessa: yeah, like the demonstration
stuff and the books and all this stuff was around all the time.
Dan: Uh huh. That
Jessa: yeah, it just was this permission, I think,
to be really open and positive about sex.
Dan: That’s so good. That’s not my upbringing. And I think most of the listeners of this podcast, um, and I think you can do it in a way that’s not like weird or out there at all. Cause like
Jessa: Oh yeah,
Dan: just a part of life.
Jessa: yeah, if you want to hear, here’s a funny story,
my, my oldest daughter went to college. I had given each of my kids the book, um, the guide to getting it on.
Dan: with a zipper. Uh, I know
Jessa: yeah, exactly. When, when they were about 16, It’s a fabulous book. Like, right. Why should we all have to learn this trial and error, reinvent the wheel.
And so anyway, [00:05:00] she goes to college. She had that book on her bookshelf and then she had wine because her dad is a wine importer.
And so it’s, it’s always been okay to have a little wine with a meal or whatever. And her, the other people in the dorm were like, Where do you come from? You know, she’s got like wine and books about sex and from her parents. Yeah. Pretty
Dan: That’s awesome. I bet she became very popular too.
Jessa: Yes. I think it, I think it opens some doors. I think lots of people borrowed the book from her actually, as
I, recall.
Dan: yeah, I bet. I bet. Great. So, we’re going to talk about eroticism today. And I think some people hearing this, they want to cover their ears like, Oh, wait, really? What’s, what is it? So let’s, let’s put it out there. What is eroticism?
Jessa: You know, it’s interesting. I don’t know what the dictionary says, but the way I think of it is it’s our unique. Kind of like fingerprint about what really turns us on,
you know, where’s the fuel in the fire for something that we find really arousing. And while there are definitely [00:06:00] themes, uh, out there, everybody’s is a little bit unique, you know, like exactly what turns one person on is not necessarily exactly what turns somebody else on or for the same reasons, you know,
Dan: Right. Kind of like our fingerprints are unique. You’re going to have some specific things. Yeah.
Jessa: right,
Dan: And I think a related definition, the root word for eroticism is Eros from Greek and Eros, is a life force. It’s the thing that puts a pep in your step, puts a smile on your face, it what gets you out of bed in the morning, it what drives you towards love, towards your attraction.
So it’s got this like, life giving spirit about it. And in Greek mythology, the antithesis of Eros is Thanatos. That’s a death instinct. That’s what always makes you want to curl up, you know, in a ball in the corner with a blanket over your head. So when I think eroticism, it’s not that. It’s, it’s
Jessa: Yeah. Which one would you rather
have in your bedroom? right.
It’s like the one that brings some energy and some like, you know, it’s such powerful fuel
in [00:07:00] a sex life.
Dan: me forward. So it’s like, I love that. What adds fuel to your sex life? That’s eroticism.
Good. Why are people afraid of discovering their own eroticism?
Jessa: I think there’s a lot of different reasons. I think the word can be sort of scary. Like what is it? Is it gotta be weird or kinky or dangerous or, you know, it’s gotten kind of loaded. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
in our culture, I think.
And then you add on the fact that for an awful lot of people, what turns them on doesn’t feel comfortable. You know, it’s sort
of like ego dystonic. It’s like, Hey, I’m this way in my real life and in my values and everything else. But somehow this is what turns me on in the bedroom. I can’t reconcile these. What does this mean about me? It feels, you know, scarier, threatening, perhaps.
Dan: Can you give a specific example of that exact thing?
Jessa: Well, I’ll give you the example that comes to mind from my favorite book
about eroticism. So Michael Bader wrote this fabulous book called Arousal, the Secret Logic of Sexual [00:08:00] Fantasies.
And the way the book is, as best as I remember, pardon me, Michael, if I mess this up, he starts with this example of this woman who’s a very strong feminist, very independent, you know, powerful and all this stuff.
And her fantasy is to kind of be taken by the janitor. In her office, and she cannot reconcile this. Like, wait, I’m the strong feminist. How can I want this?
And the answer lies in his theory is that our, what turns us on alleviate some guilt and shame. So basically she feels so powerful in her life. That she needs to be disempowered to feel safe to totally get aroused, that she’s not going to run over anybody or overpower
anybody.
So she has to be like the opposite in order to, to fully get aroused. So that’s sort of how he thinks our eroticism serves us, is it, it gets rid of some sort of guilt or shame.
Dan: I think there are definitely roots in that, too. and just broadly speaking, Dr. Esther Perel talks about, like, for men generally,[00:09:00]
fully present in a sexual encounter is the fear of being like the predator. It’s the fear of being a taker in it, right? That’s why when he’s with a woman that’s really turned on and wants to be there and saying, yes, yes, yes. He
Jessa: Right. It alleviates
Dan: it alleviates that there’s like that barrier is removed.
And then that’s why it’s so exciting. And I think a lot of like pornographic material produced, uh, like they highlight the very enthusiastic partner in that, right?
Jessa: Well, and think about the number of people that, that fantasize or get aroused by the idea of being forced into sex or tied up or not having choice,
you know, in real life, we don’t want to be forced. Like that’s not real,
but somehow we’re absolved of our guilt of wanting this thing or we’re sure the person wants it because it’s being forced on us.
I mean, it’s just really interesting to think of our, how our own stuff gets in the way.
Yeah.
Yeah. Absolutely. Um, Of us being fully present, like you said.
Dan: Right, right. I think if you were to ask most people that think about sex [00:10:00] often, they have a running list in their head of things they’d like to try one day or things they’d like to do. And I think we can categorically call that your eroticism, things that you’re drawn to, things that you find interesting.
And perhaps that list can be split into two again, like things you’d actually want to do in real life and things that just belong in fantasy alone.
Jessa: That is such an important distinction. I made my own yes, no, maybe list because of that. Most of them are like just yes, no, or maybe. And it’s like, well, yes, I want to think about it. No, I don’t want to do it. That’s really common,
you know, because in our fantasy, we get to control every element of it. You know, there’s no actual risk or danger.
And it’s like, so just because you find something arousing to think about does not mean necessarily you want to do it.
Dan: yeah, is there a specific story you can think of where you worked with a client or even in your own life where you kind of help them realize it’s okay to have a fantasy or have a desire that only lives in fantasy?
Jessa: Well, I mean, the [00:11:00] classic example is something like the rape fantasy.
Nobody actually wants to get raped.
Right. That’s not, you know, that is not true, but in fantasy, just this idea that you’re being forced and taken that absolving it gives you and
everything. It can be fun to play there in your mind, but because it’s, you’re not being hurt, you’re not being, you know, none of this is actually happening.
You can just play with the elements of it that relieve your, your guilt or your shame, and you’re not really doing it. So I think that’s like the, the perfect example where, yeah, maybe this is arousing to think about not to do.
Dan: I like that. I have young kids and I got this out of a parenting book. I found really helpful. And the scenario is it’s five o’clock. You’re making dinner and your kid comes up and says, can I have ice cream? And it’s usually a bad idea to give your kids ice cream before dinner because they won’t eat, you know, a nutritious meal.
So instead of saying no to them, can you give them ice cream and fantasy? And the idea is like. Oh, I’d love to get you an [00:12:00] imaginary bowl or a scoop or imaginary cone and like lick it and give them a lick or whatever, right? And this works for, you know, the right age, but when you can like play in the idea of having ice cream, it’s sometimes just as fun or just as nice than actually having it.
Does
Jessa: Yeah. And
Dan: sexually with couples?
Jessa: so, because think about it, especially if the child had a lactose intolerance or something they can’t, this, they can’t, they don’t want to do it in real life, but they can enjoy it in fantasy. Well, I think where you’re, where I go with your question is in exploring, and we can talk more about this.
How do we share our eroticism with our partner? How do we start to, you know, have that conversation? What do we do with this? One of the ways. To deal with differences in erotic interests is can we bring it into fantasy?
Is there some way to play with this? Could we talk about it? Could we talk as if it’s about to happen? Could we pretend it has happened? You know, I may not want to do this thing you’re so interested in. Like it might be a turn off for me, which means it’s a no go. But [00:13:00] maybe I can play with you in that space if it’s not something we can enact or we decide it’s not something we want to.
Dan: Oh yeah, that’s great. That’s doable. Put it in a story form or something where,
Jessa: Yeah. yeah,
Cause just because it’s off limits in real life for somebody doesn’t necessarily mean it’s off limits in, in play or fantasy.
Yeah.
Dan: between my wife and I that are only exist in fantasy. And she can just say just a part or like a keyword of the
Jessa: All you need is a little hand,
right? There you go.
Dan: all floods back and we love it. We’d love playing in that space and they’re not
Jessa: It’s really powerful. Yeah,
Dan: Yeah, it’s amazing what our minds can do. Okay, so that’s a category of things we probably won’t do in real life. But then there are things that we actually do want to do with our spouse. like a couple that wants to, you know, those remote controlled vibrators, panty vibrators, you push a button Like, let’s go grocery shopping and see how long we can last. Like[00:14:00]
for some people they found that erotic, right? Or whatever. And okay. They kind of want to pull it off, but there’s still not sure.
Like how do couples negotiate this as, as a collaborative, equal partners?
Jessa: Well, let’s back up a second because I think we should talk first about how do we even start to share our interests with
Dan: Oh, thank
Jessa: Because before you. get to like planning and collaborating, it’s like we need to talk,
you know, first, we need to understand what turns us on because some people, first of all, some people don’t fantasize.
And they feel bad, like, I don’t have a fantasy.
That’s okay. You know, but how do you start to explore what really is arousing to you? And I, I think there’s some hints, you know, like if you come across a scene in a romance novel or a movie or a TV show, or erotic imagery of some sort, like what What do you gravitate to?
What kind of flips the switch? What do you notice? Like, Ooh, right there. You know, that gives you a hint into what you might find erotic and it doesn’t have to be super wild and racy and kinky or anything. It could be [00:15:00] really romantic. It could be, um, being cared for. It could be anything,
but like what recognize starting to see the themes of
what somebody finds interesting and then starting to talk about that with your partner.
mean, first I always say make, make it a really safe, welcoming container. Like you’re not talking yet about doing any of it.
Like, so don’t, don’t react to it like this big, no, you know, stop sign, but like, try to be really accepting and nonjudgmental
Dan: Oh, I
Jessa: sharing with each other, what is arousing, like nothing is off limits in the mind.
Try to be really welcoming and make, you know, no shame zone in here. And. I often recommend that people do share those scenes with each other.
Like it’s easier, it’s easier for me to send you a couple of links or highlight some passages in a romance novel
and let you
Dan: Because it’s neutral. Uh huh.
Jessa: Yeah, because it’s someone else’s material
than to lay out my fantasy, right?
This is somebody else wrote this. I’m responding to it, but I didn’t create it. And if you do [00:16:00] share this stuff with each other, it’s important to talk about like what part of it is arousing. Because if I sent you like a clip or something, I’d have to say, forget this 98%. It’s that moment in a movie scene or whatever, it’s not the whole thing.
It’s right there when he said that, or it’s that move or it’s that look, you know, we have to have a conversation and be like, which part of this material, because it is someone else’s
right. Which part is it? That’s right. That’s resonating with us, and to share that with each other and just make space to understand it and welcome it. Then we get into, okay, what do we want to do with some of this?
Dan: That’s good.
Jessa: Does that make
Dan: Yeah, that makes sense. there’s a couple that I’ve coached where he would turn to his wife and say, Tell me about your fantasies. she’d struggle with that question often.
Jessa: Right,
Dan: But she wanted to be better and really respond, so she took some time to really think about what she fantasizes about.
And mind you, I don’t think there’s anything wrong if you don’t have quote unquote fantasies. There’s nothing wrong with you, right? [00:17:00] He kind of treated her as if something was wrong with her, and for, so you gotta know that in a relationship. There’s nothing wrong with you if you don’t have them, so treating your spouse or whatever as something’s gone wrong because you don’t have them, or that you have them, it’s not going to help anybody.
Okay, anyway, so she thought about it and she said, okay, I got one. I’m wearing beautiful lingerie and I come into the bedroom with you and you hold me and you kiss me. You tell me how pretty I am. And he’s like, yeah, that’s what we already do. Tell me your fantasy.
Jessa: Oh
Dan: And she’s like, well, I, okay. Um, I did my hair really nice and you complimented how good I look.
And then you like open the door for me and you like, want to talk with me and ask me about how I’m feeling. It’s like, uh, we already do that too. No, tell me your fantasy. I want to hear your fantasies. Right. And then she got frustrated and it’s like, [00:18:00] Alright, what, how do you help a couple like that?
Jessa: Well, I mean, the, the, the guy in this story has got this idea that fantasies have to be kind of risque and wild and, and is missing the point of like, what’s really meaningful and salient to your partner.
What makes them feel safe enough to be aroused, you know, and that’s really erotic to them. And we shouldn’t be judging each other, whether it’s too crazy and wild or whether it isn’t crazy and wild at all,
you
Dan: Yeah, it cuts both ways there, right.
Jessa: Yeah, it does. And it’s sort of like when I’m working with couples around touch and desire and stuff, like don’t judge what somebody wants, like if somebody wants their hairbrush and that’s what gives them the most pleasure right now. That is just as lovely as your desire for like oral sex. Like there’s no, there’s no scale on which we rate these things.
Do they have value? So, and that’s the same thing is true with fantasies.
Dan: That’s good, that’s good. They’re all of equal value if it produces interest in the relationship
Jessa: Yeah, exactly. It’s like, what is it? What is it for each person? That’s what we’re dealing with. [00:19:00] Nobody’s broken for whatever they want or, you know, are turned on by.
Dan: Okay, let’s do the flip side. This is where one person has a fantasy that relative to the other person seems pretty out there.
Jessa: Mm hmm.
Dan: how do you handle that situation? Mm
Jessa: can we have the conversation to just understand and validate and accept what turns each other on without, you yet thinking about, are we going to do this thing?
Right? We’re not even to the point of what do we, you know, how are we going to incorporate this if we are into the relationship? But can we at least understand why this might be erotic to them, and that that is okay? Uh, then there is a conversation, is there room, okay, let’s, the example that’s coming to mind is let’s say somebody’s really interested in like a threesome.
Dan: Okay. All
Jessa: And the other person is just, does not
find this interesting.
And in fact, like threatening and absolutely not.
So if it really is an absolute, I mean, you know, first, is there any [00:20:00] situation in which you would or whatever, but let’s say it’s absolutely not. That’s where the conversation is. Okay. Is there room to play with this? Just in fantasy
Dan: Mm hmm.
Jessa: to be able to pretend someone’s about to come in, you know,
or it just happened or whatever.
So we can give the person that finds this erotic, some of that fuel without introducing it in real life.
Dan: Right.
Jessa: Sometimes the answer is no, right? Sometimes somebody’s erotic interest is an actual turnoff or barrier to the other person,
Dan: Yep.
Jessa: you know, because I don’t, I sort of don’t want people doing anything unless it’s neutral or better, you know, like if I’m, if I can do it and be neutral, it doesn’t do anything for me, but I’m okay,
then I could probably play with that, right? But if it’s a, if it’s a negative thing, Then it really doesn’t have a space in that really, you know, in that shared sex life.
Dan: Right. You don’t, uh, impose it or demand it.
Jessa: I mean, you really can’t because you’re talking about somebody You know in the scenario we’re talking about it’s actually would kind of cause harm to the other [00:21:00] person in a way It’s a turn off. It’s a problem. So we can’t expect our partner. It’s you know, what if sex hurt? You’re supposed to show up and do it.
Anyway, just because I want it better hurts you like no that can’t be
part of the answer
Dan: No. Definitely not. All right. so learning how to talk about it is hard. Partially because, like I see people, they tiptoe around their desire, they don’t fully reveal it. Or they, also want to eliminate choice. Meaning, like, they want it so bad they’re going to, you know, kind of do relationship control moves like, you know, withdraw if you don’t give this to me
Jessa: hmm,
Dan: you know, or accommodate, be overly accommodating to get what they want or act out to get what they want.
Like those are the common things people kind of do. But, uh, what happens when people operate at that level in their relationship? Can
Jessa: if you’re not, I talk about [00:22:00] this all the time in my own content, right? It’s got to be a mutually fulfilling, mutually desired sex life for it to be sustainable. So if somebody cannot show up and have sex out of obligation over and over and over again and maintain any desire, I mean, it’s just, they’re going to hit a wall and can’t do it anymore. Similar thing. I can’t just do what you want erotically. If it comes at a cost to me over and over just because you want it. I mean, this gets tricky because if we’re in a monogamous relationship, you’re my only outlet for this besides solo sex, which again, really helps. Um, but we do have some sort of expectation.
Like if I only get to have sex with you, I should be able to get this need fulfilled, but we are in a relationship with another person. Not a sex doll, you know, and their needs and wants matter too. And this is where collaboration and sometimes sacrifice and, you know, we don’t get everything we want when we have two people to consider.
Dan: you speak on emotional enmeshment and how that can occur around couples not knowing how to navigate differences in [00:23:00] fantasies or sharing fantasies?
Jessa: That’s a big topic, but I think, I think enmeshment is basically, I’m sort of tied to you, right? And all my moves are in relation to you and we can’t, it’s hard to differentiate and just let me be myself and speak my truth, even if it makes you unhappy like that, you know, until we can really be totally honest. sort of self validate. We’re too worried about what our partner thinks of what the reaction is going to be. So that drives my, you know, we lose ourselves a little bit in the relationship. And I, you know, I think in that case, sometimes somebody is going to find themselves doing something that isn’t good for them. And at some point is going to realize that or isn’t going to be able to do it anymore. There’s gonna be some sort of real bright breaker crisis in the relationship. I mean, again, unless it’s neutral or better, that that would be fine. But when it comes to the cost. That could lead to people figuring out.
I mean, I’ve had plenty of clients like this, you know, for 20 years I’ve been having sex out of obligation. I cannot do it anymore. You
know, they at some point it’s not gonna work.[00:24:00]
Dan: Have you worked with any couples or any stories you can share with couples that really moved out of that kind of, let’s say the duty frame, into more of this collaborative, more honest frame?
Jessa: Oh Yeah, because that’s what I do people hold the time so they come in, you know they often come in having had some sense of obligation around sex and Sometimes that is like the way they’ve been raised. That’s how they’ve thought about it often It’s about how the dynamics played out between the two people and this is what they’re enacting
You know, you get sulky if I say no, so I just do it, you know, all this stuff.
So we try, I try to really emphasize the importance of both people actually wanting sex. There’s no way to make a really fulfilling, sustainable, enjoyable sex life in both, unless both people want it and both people are getting something out of it. And so the person who’s maybe been pushing or the higher desire partner, the one that has this erotic interest, when they start to see the cost, I mean, most of them come in knowing. It’s not very satisfying when I can tell you’re [00:25:00] doing this just as a chore or as an obligation. You know, most people in this, in those shoes really want their partner to want it. So it’s not too hard to point out the cost of behaving like this and realizing what needs to change so the person can, can step into their own desire.
Dan: hmm. That’s really good. I did an exercise, I’ve done this a few times, but, I got the idea from the book, Slow Sex by Nicole Dadon. She talks about, you get out a piece of paper and a pen, and you set the timer for ten minutes.
And you’re answering the question, uh, what does my sexuality want? And you write for ten minutes without lifting your pen.
Jessa: Wow.
Dan: And when you’re done, you can throw away the paper, you can burn it, you can share it with your spouse, whatever, right? Like, it’s really up to you. But the exercise is really to take a look.
I think some of us, when it comes to eroticism, we’re afraid to actually see what’s there. It’s like that closet that’s really disorganized, so you don’t open it ever, but if you ever do take the time to really open it and go through it, it makes a mess in [00:26:00] the meantime, but afterwards, you’re like, I know what’s in it, and it’s a functional closet again.
Jessa: I think The reason people are so afraid to look at that and it feels like the scary thing in the closet is because so often we are somewhat ashamed about what turns
Dan: Yes, yes we
Jessa: I mean, really, because it’s just like, wow, this thing turns me on, but this is not who I am in any other part of my life.
Or this is so not what you’re supposed to want, or this is not legal, or, you know, um, it’s, it’s really scary. And I think that’s part of the reason we get so scared. Defensive or, or very careful of their partners. Cause we have our own shame about it.
Like if I felt totally comfortable, um, insecure in what turned me on, I probably would not hesitate to tell a partner.
Right. But their reaction triggers my own discomfort with
Dan: Yeah, yeah, their reaction confirms my own, um,
uh, ambivalence or like discomfort with my own
Jessa: Right. So even somebody exploring their own, you know,
eroticism or what does my sexuality want to realize that all you’re doing is [00:27:00] looking and writing it down. It still doesn’t mean anything about what you’re going to do.
You, you don’t have to do any of it. So you, it’s, I think they really think, Oh, if I say this, then I’m supposed to do it and want it.
And it’s going to happen. And what if I,
you know, what if I don’t want to,
Dan: Oh, that’s one more key of the exercise, is without filter. You just let it all out, right?
Jessa: yeah,
Dan: So 10 minutes later, the timer goes off and I look at the paper, my holy cow, there was a lot in there.
Jessa: really?
Dan: Yeah. Some of it surprised me. Some of it didn’t surprise me. Like, but the next step was even scarier and that’s sharing it with my, with my wife.
Because what is
Jessa: Which was optional if I understood this
Dan: optional, but I wanted to because I want her to know who she’s married to. I want, I want, I want, this is a very intimate act, right? Sharing something so personal to me and so private and so core to who I am with the person I love and am married and committed to.
That’s [00:28:00] definitely an act of intimacy that requires a lot of courage. But,
Jessa: do it too? Were
Dan: at a different time, she has, uh huh.
But, uh, emailed it because I didn’t have the courage to say it out loud.
Jessa: But that’s, you know, that’s, that is so much harder again, that’s like a level
up. That’s like sharing your fantasies as opposed to, Oh, here’s a movie clip. I responded to, right. I think that’s a lower level of anxiety,
but yeah, you gave her like, what’s like really in your head.
Dan: Anyway, this is years ago, but, um, And I don’t even know if she ever read the email.
Jessa: Really?
Dan: But the point is, like, it is wide, and we’re touching on this some more, but I want to just go with one level deeper is, I think it’s natural to feel some shame to some of the things that we want, especially if we’re not quite sure about it ourselves.
We want our spouse to [00:29:00] validate our sexuality, our eroticism, and when that validation is not there, it’s very easy to kind of be hurt by that. But is there a better way?
Jessa: Well, I mean, it’s, it’s not just about eroticism. I mean, basically we have a lifetime journey towards self validation.
It’s wonderful to get validation from a partner. It feels great, but to need it as a problem. we have this opportunity to move towards more of an ability to validate ourselves and be okay with who we are and what we are, no matter what the reaction is that we get.
And that’s what allows us to show up and be fully open and intimate. You know, that I can tell you something, even if you’re not going to react well to it. And I can hold, I can take care of myself in that. And so I think we You know, we want to move towards that with our own sexuality too, so it’s not dependent on whether our partner accepts this or not,
Dan: we’re more self reliant in our own desires there. Great. And so, what happens if you are overly dependent on your spouse’s [00:30:00] validation of your eroticism?
Jessa: Uh, you probably won’t share. You’ll hold things back. You’ll start living in kind of a smaller and smaller box. Like if it’s I’m constantly gauging what I’m gonna do or what I’m gonna say or how I’m supposed to feel based on what I think, you know, I’m getting further and further away from my true self. And the other thing that’ll tend to happen is that someday it’s gonna come out sideways. You’re gonna get blindsided by something because your your partner hasn’t been fully I guess I’ll say honest,
but open and reveal. And here I am, right? So, so at some point in the future, I find out that’s not really who you were, how you felt or what you wanted, or you were never actually on board with that decision, you know?
So it’s a real handicap. so that the invitation to be willing to be totally open and honest when there might be a consequence really builds trust.
You know, like I know you’ll tell me anything cause you don’t, you’re willing to tell me things, that I don’t want to hear potentially, you know, like, boy, then I can really trust that you’re being [00:31:00] honest.
Dan: So, how do we move more towards self validated eroticism? Like back to me, right, you know, nervous with this email, like, uh, whatever, I ended up hitting
Jessa: I mean, I
Dan: but,
half the things I’m afraid of, uh huh.
Jessa: hitting, hitting the send button was a big thing. I don’t, I don’t exactly have a path for this exactly, except an awareness of, can I make this okay with me? Can I be fully honest? That’s one of the biggest things is can you just take the action
to be honest and open even when there’s a risk or there could be a consequence and the more you do that, I think the easier it gets, that’s the exercise, that’s the workout, that’s the muscle to build, yeah, Right. Right. received the way I want, but, It matters to me to be honest with my spouse,
Dan: to share what And hopefully in that exercise, and even in the sharing of it, it starts to move you towards more acceptance of your own eroticism and your interests, uh, you know, or I don’t know, talk to other people or get a [00:32:00] therapist or whatever to help. Can I make peace with this part of myself and just
Jessa: accept it, you know?
Dan: Great. And if there is something that you find erotic that causes harm to other people, maybe you do need to get some extra help in that case. Like, that could not be healthy for, for you to function. Or I think the other part too, is I think some of the listeners to this podcast might be married to someone who seemed like overly obsessed they hold on to this fantasy or this something so much that they must have it in order for. this part of their relationship to go.
Jessa: You know, it’s interesting cause it almost verges into the, into the area of like a fetish,
which tech technically means I need this to be aroused.
Dan: Uh huh. Right.
Jessa: It’s an, it’s not really optional. It’s like this, we don’t know how this happens. We have no idea how this happens, but somehow it’s wired in the brain,
Dan: Right. Uh huh. And it doesn’t happen to [00:33:00] everybody either. It’s
Jessa: Oh no, not by it. No, not at all. Um, so there’s, there’s like one end of the spectrum where somebody like they’re only aroused by this thing. And that’s pretty hardwired. We don’t have a, there’s no cure for it. I mean, it’s not broken,
Dan: Uh
Jessa: so there’s no cure for this. There’s no way to, you know, that I know of to change this.
So that’s, but that’s not that common, you know, then there’s just strong desires for it because again, it is so arousing
it’s got, yeah, it’s got so much fuel, so compelling, it’s like really, really want this thing, but we do, if we’re going to be in a committed relationship with one person, we can’t Get everything we want.
So there’s like, is there some way to collaborate to pull again, pull some of this in maybe in fantasy or something, but we also can’t just keep hammering our partner over something that they’ve made clear as a turnoff for them.
Dan: I think that’s good to recognize. I think it’s easy in podcast form like this to make it sound like, here’s the steps, one, two, three, to get everything you want.[00:34:00]
Jessa: Yeah, no.
Dan: And let’s be realistic here, I love how you’re touching on that. But part of building a great life is also learning that you’re not entitled to everything that you want.
Jessa: Right.
Dan: every fantasy that you have or thing you find erotic is going to be done and served on a silver platter the way you
Jessa: No, exactly. Because you’ve got two people, both of whose needs and wants and well being matter
equally. And so Sometimes some of the stuff has to come off the table because there’s just not a way to incorporate it. I mean, hopefully both people show up in a spirit of collaboration and care about each other’s needs and wellbeing and, you know, want to be part of a mutually satisfying solution and sometimes stuff comes off the table.
And again, if you were in a relationship with a robot, a lot easier, right? You can probably get exactly what you want, but not when you’re with another actual person.
Dan: uh huh, right, good. It’s a part of loving well, which is something I believe a lot that, that sexuality drives us to do when we [00:35:00] harness that energy to love another person really well. Might be to take something off the table sometimes,
or it might be to push yourself to put something on the table that you otherwise wouldn’t.
And there’s no right, there’s no like formula for this other than it’s about growth. It’s about inviting you to step up and grow up. and be an adult about it. Like, can we really
Jessa: And when you say like, put it, push yourself, I mean, I guess I just want to, um, I’ll speak to that for a second. Like I think there is room to get out of our comfort zone. And to try things and try to expand our mind and see what’s possible and everything’s uncomfortable at first, right? So is there a way to get more comfortable with something and to make that effort for a partner, especially if they’ve got a really strong erotic interest, is there any way this can work for me, neutral or better? And sometimes, sometimes you’ve come up, it’s a hard no, you know, and I’m not, don’t push yourself then, like don’t do things that are harmful to you, but just being a little uncomfortable and trying to grow and expand is not harmful in and [00:36:00] of itself.
Dan: any tips for situations where, uh, like I get this a lot. One wants oral sex and the other doesn’t, but is willing to try, but it’s so daunting because of disgust and whatever.
Like, how do you help couples through that? Uh huh,
Jessa: I think that’s a really good example. This comes up a fair amount in my practice too. Believe it or not, oral sex is, is a really good example of something people can potentially become comfortable with, where they start out really uncomfortable and they can gain that comfort through practice and experience. Now if somebody’s got a really strong disgust reaction, that’s trickier. But if it’s just like, I don’t know what I’m doing. This is kind of weird and you know, it’s just sort of intimidating. I would say start. Don’t start with whatever images you might’ve seen anywhere else. You’re not trying to mimic anything about how this goes. What’s it like to just put your mouth on, you know, near somebody else’s genitals. What’s it like to just do a little bit, like, don’t think of it [00:37:00] as a whole thing. Just gradually explore and see if, you know, take little baby steps and see if it gets more comfortable. Um, but don’t think about, you know, like getting somebody to an orgasm or something
Dan: Can you do 20 seconds? Can you start there or something,
Jessa: Yeah. Yeah. Can you just kiss first or what’s it like to explore just out of your own interest for what it feels like on your mouth versus the result you’re trying to produce for somebody else and yeah, break, break it down a little bit, but it’s a good example of something that you really can develop comfort with and even joy and the, you know, and some people really connect with the, the ability to give that kind of pleasure.
Yeah. So even. Um,
a lot of,
Dan: is erotic. Yes. Uh
Jessa: it can’t either erotic or just gratifying. So often the
person giving oral sex is not necessarily getting aroused by it. It’s not doing the same thing for them that it is for the receiver, but they might really enjoy maybe the power, but at least the, the, the ability to, to give pleasure and really kind of get into that once they get more comfortable with the actual act.
Dan: Uh huh. [00:38:00] I love that. That’s good.
Jessa: Yeah.
Dan: Love that. That’s great. This has been a fantastic conversation. Thank
Jessa: It’s such a fun topic. Yeah.
Dan: Where can people go to learn more about your work?
Jessa: intimacy with these. com.
Dan: Great. I have a, you know, I’ve, I’ve got a podcast, I’ve got a book, I’ve got an online course. I’ve got all kinds of YouTube videos. I’ve got some private podcasts you can sign up for just higher desire partners or lower desire. I’ve got all kinds of stuff over there.
Jessa: So yeah.
Dan: Great. I’ve read your book and it’s excellent too. So
Jessa: Oh, thank you.
Dan: very good.
If you want a more meaningful sexual and intimate connection in your marriage, I invite you to check out my, get your marriage on program. Dan: Over a hundred couples have said this program packs tremendous value and has helped their intimacy grow to the next level. Now [00:39:00] go get your marriage on.
