It’s hard to believe that my wife and I started this work eight years ago! At that time we were 13 years into a happy marriage, but something was missing. We just didn’t quite know what it was. And that’s when a friend opened up to me about his sex life and taught me about how a healthy, vibrant sexual relationship permeates not only the marriage relationship, but adds texture color in life to all other aspects of life, too. As we focused on enhancing our sexual intimacy as a couple, what my friend told me was absolutely right.
And we’ve been on a mission to share this message ever since.
That’s why I’m excited to tell you about today’s guest, Tanya Hale, as she’s learned something similar. She calls it being a “well-sexed woman” in that she’s found how a connecting and vibrant sex life gives more creativity to life and everyday living. You’ll get to hear Tanya’s story of a failed marriage, the valuable lessons she learned immediately afterwards, and the new marriage that she’s created. You’ll learn about the importance of emotional safety and connection, as well as some of her tips to living well and a happy marriage.
Christmas is coming up, so why not ditch the stuff that accumulates and instead invest in experiences that will pay dividends and expand your relationship? Why not attend our upcoming couples retreat in March 2025? It will be the only in-person retreat we plan to do next year, and it’s perfect for couples who are in an otherwise happy marriage, but wish things were better in the intimacy department. The retreat is also romantic. It’s fun. It’s relaxing. It’s in a beautiful setting. And details are all on our website.
You should also know that we have our official Get Your Marriage On Program, where you can work with me and my team in a coaching setting to help you overcome the specific challenges with intimacy in your marriage. Don’t miss the testimonials on the results page, as well, to see how this program is changing the lives of other couples!
Transcript
This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors or inaccuracies. For the most accurate and complete experience, we recommend listening to the full podcast episode.
Episode 218
Dan: It’s hard to believe that my wife and I started this work eight years ago. At that time we were 13 years into a happy marriage. But something was missing. We just didn’t quite know what it was. And that’s when a friend opened up to me about his sex life and taught me about how a healthy. Vibrant sexual relationship permeates not only the marriage relationship, but adds texture color in life to all other aspects of life, to. As we focused on enhancing our sexual intimacy as a couple, my friend told me was absolutely right.
And we’ve been on a mission to share this message ever since.
And that’s why I’m excited to tell you about today’s guest. She’s learned something similar. She calls it being a well sexy woman in that she’s found how a connecting and vibrant sex life.
It gives more creativity and life and everyday living. You’ll get to hear Tonya story of a failed marriage, the valuable lessons she learned immediately afterwards, and the new marriage that she’s created. You’ll learn about the importance of emotional safety and [00:01:00] connection, as well as some of her tips to living well and a happy marriage. This month, we’re asking our podcast listeners to join our, get it on a thumb.
This is our first annual, get it on a Thun fundraiser. And this is just for one month. We ask you that if you want to, every time your spouse. Get it on. Consider donating, say a dollar to help another couple struggling with infertility. Let’s help a worthy couple. Have a baby by next year, Christmas. Speaking of Christmas. Why not ditch the stuff that accumulates and instead invest in experiences that will pay dividends and expand your relationship.
Why not attend our upcoming couples retreat in March, 2025? It will be the only in-person retreat we plan to do next year. And it’s perfect for couples who are in an otherwise happy marriage, but wish things were better in the intimacy department. The retreat is also romantic. It’s fun. It’s relaxing.
It’s in a beautiful setting. And details are all on our [00:02:00] website@getyourmarriageon.com. You should also know that we have our official get your marriage on program, where you can work with me and my team in a coaching setting to help you overcome the specific challenges with intimacy in your marriage.
Take a look at the program page on, get your marriage. Dot coms website, and also check out the testimonials on the results page as well.
Tanya, welcome to the Get Your Marriage On podcast. I met you just a few weekends ago. We’re at a retreat together and you had this incredible story and I just had to have you on my podcast. Now tell me what’s your current marriage like?
Tanya: Um, oh gosh, it’s literally, it’s a miracle. It is the most, it’s sweeter than I could have ever imagined a marriage being, especially after my previous marriage. Um, my husband and I have been married for two and a half years and it is a beautiful, amazing place with a lot of clear communication.
We have a lot of tools that we use that help us to [00:03:00] really understand one another and talk about all the things in, in beautiful, respectful ways. And, um, sexually, it’s like nothing I’ve ever experienced before. And I’m 56.
Dan: Great. And this is a second marriage
for both of you. Yep.
And you’re jokingly telling me between the two of you have 53 years of horrible bad sex
Tanya: Pretty bad,
pretty bad marriage and not a lot of good
sex in there for either one of us.
Yeah.
Dan: Yeah, yeah. Well, rewind me back. Tell me about your first marriage and the lessons you’ve learned from
Tanya: All right. So I personally was married for 24 years and, it was pretty hard from the get go for both of us. And I think
neither of us really had a lot of tools to understand how to create a healthy, safe space for each other emotionally. And, And,
so that was a huge part of what we struggled with. And sexually, it was always kind of difficult as well.
It was one of those spaces where, um, I grew up with a lot of the [00:04:00] purity culture ideas of what I needed to be as a woman, that I needed to be very tight, very strict, very, you know, very vanilla in, in how I lived my life. And. and knowing that I needed to be desirable, but I wasn’t supposed to desire, right?
That, that me having huge sexual desires was, was not a thing. And yet I wasn’t freaked out by sex when we got married. It was something that I actually was looking forward to. Um, but it would just never really became a super safe space. for me in my previous marriage. And so it did become a place of contention in my previous marriage.
And, and as the years went on and we just continue to struggle in, in every aspect of our marriage, I just could not figure it out. And it was so difficult for me to just go, I don’t get this. He’s a good person. I’m a good person. Why can’t we figure this out? Why are we always at odds? why can’t he make me [00:05:00] happy? You know,
I just could never really understand what was going on. And eventually, after a lot of drama, a lot of most difficult decision of my life kind of stuff, we ended up getting divorced after 24 years.
Dan: I bet that was really
Tanya: it was, it was really hard. And I mean, divorce comes with all of its own. It’s own stuff as well. But for
sure, very difficult in, in all the questions that I asked about myself, you know, wondering, am I lovable? Um, and can I love, am I even capable of loving the way that a person needs to be loved? So a lot of doubts about my love ability and my love ability, you know, just, just didn’t really understand that a lot of, you know, A lot of fear of, you know, the culture that I grew up in.
And am I going to be accepted as a divorced person? And what does it mean that I now have this, this subtitle by my name of divorcee and, and how does that work? And what does it mean about me that I couldn’t [00:06:00] make, a marriage be successful. And, um, yeah, a divorce comes with a lot of baggage that, we don’t always anticipate if you’ve never been in a place of anticipating divorce, you know?
Dan: Yeah, yeah. I can just only imagine how lost you must have felt during that
Tanya: Yeah, it was, it was really challenging. And I think part of the loss for me was also That when I first got divorced, I was very, very much in a blame space, very much
in the, in the place where I could only see where he had caused all the issues. And it was all him because of this and this and this and this reason. And it took me a
while to start realizing, the role that I played in the dysfunction of the marriage. And I think that that’s when healing can really start to take place. After a marriage is after a divorce is when we start to realize our own role in the dysfunction and start to clean that up for us because then we can show up differently in the next in the next round [00:07:00] if, if we choose to have the next round.
So,
Dan: So tell me, during this time of deep self-reflection and self-examination, who were the main influences that kind of helped you build a new version of who you are
Tanya: oh, such a good question. I think the first one, I had a friend about nine months after my divorce who said something to me about Brene Brown and she thought that I would really enjoy Brene Brown. And I was like, okay, well, I don’t really have shame issues, but I’ll. I’ll jump on board. Right. And I’ll take a look. I
Dan: Uhhuh.
Tanya: a presentation that she had done, um, called the power of vulnerability. It’s a five hour presentation that she gave and I checked it
out from the library. CDs in my car and started listening and I was blown away. As she started talking about vulnerability. And to be honest, that was never a term that I had ever associated with marriage before. Um, and so I was like, whoa, vulnerability, like what is this? And like, and I started to realize how [00:08:00] I did not show up with any of that in my previous marriage. I did not understand the concepts of intimacy, like the kind of emotional intimacy that, That we wanted. I, I know that I used to, to tell my ex husband, I would say, I just want us to be best friends.
And that’s about the extent of what I understood about intimacy. And,
and so I, I started listening to Brene Brown and I was about a year, like just swimming in all things Brene Brown. I read all of her books.
I watched videos. I listened to so many of her presentations. I reread the books. I just really dug into that and started to learn a lot about boundaries. A lot about vulnerability, a lot about, um, really knowing myself at a deeper level so that I could be a different person. And so she was my first big aha into really understanding what a lot of my [00:09:00] dysfunctionalities were that I took into my marriage. and then I continued to do some work. I found some Byron Katie who talks about loving what is, and I read that book and I
was like, whoa, right?
Like, like I can really shift the way that I think. And then I found, um, the life coach school in Brooke Castillo, and she teaches something called the thought model. And I started to,
to understand the power of my thoughts and how all of that fit in with things. And then I got certified. through Brooks school and
and really started digging into this work.
I was still single at the time and But really starting to put pieces together as to what could make healthy relationships and I started to make some shifts with my own children started to to show up differently and in, in how I related with all the relationships in my life. And I didn’t date very much at all for, for a large part of the years that I was
Dan: Mm-Hmm.
Tanya: years, I dated somebody for six months [00:10:00] and then I didn’t date again for almost another two years.
And so about five years, I decided it was time to start dating again. I felt like I had enough tools that I could come into it. And I was listening to at the time, actually, A conversation between Brooke Castillo and another lady named April Franks, and they were talking about women in business and how to step into our femininity and how to really create. The power and strength that we have as women to do great things. Um, and so I was listening to that and April Franks said she was, she was talking about something and she says, well, you know, she says if a woman is well rested, if she’s well fed and if she’s well sexed, and I just have to say at that, at that moment, my brain went screech what sexed and I was, I, I don’t know.
I don’t even remember anything else that she talked about in that presentation because I was just like, wait a minute, well sex, like, like, what is that? And, and what does [00:11:00] that mean? And, and so I really started to start looking. into things and trying to figure this piece out a little bit. and there were three places that I really went a lot.
I went to Jennifer Finlayson Fife and started listening to her. I started listening to some of your podcasts, but mostly I used your app a lot and the learn little tab there at the bottom. I
really read through that a lot and I listened to, the sex for saints podcast. with Amanda Louder. And I listened to those three a lot.
And I started to connect with an idea of sexuality that I had never connected with before. I had always thought before I got married that sex would, sex would be fun. Six would be enjoyable. And then when it wasn’t because of a lack of, of, Understanding and knowledge from, from both me and my husband, my husband.
it, it just became something that I did for him because it was something that I felt was my job and my duty, right? As, as many of us that were raised in the seventies [00:12:00] and eighties, as women were taught that it was just our job to keep our man happy, right? So that he doesn’t go to pornography or he doesn’t find another woman or he does, you know, that, that was our job and, and part of our job description. And so. So I had fallen into that, which does not make for very great sexual life with your spouse. When anytime we come in with obligation or duty, it’s, it’s in any aspect of our marriage. It’s, you know, it’s like throwing water on a fire. It just douses anything good that could be going on. And so I really started to step into this idea and I started to realize that God created my body to be sexual. Which
was something that I really had never connected with that idea before. And I especially love
the ideas that I found that, you know, a penis actually has two functions, sexual and
Dan: Uh huh.
Tanya: right? A woman’s clitoris,
which is, you know, where our orgasms [00:13:00] originate has one function.
And I don’t know why that took me so many years, but I was like, Oh my gosh, like God gave me this organ in my body only for sexual pleasure. So
why in the world would he give me that if he didn’t want me to be sexual? And I
started to realize that that sexuality was a piece of who I was. And the visual that I came up with at that time was, was that there were five elements to who I was. I had, was a spiritual self, an intellectual self. physical, emotional, and sexual. And I felt like I was a
five sided spaceship. And four of
those were like trying desperately to get off the ground and the sexual was just grounded. It was tied down to the ground. And so the rest of those areas of my life, though, they were, they were They were functioning and they were really trying to soar my, I felt like my sexuality was just keeping me grounded. And,[00:14:00]
and so when I started to really educate myself and understand more about, listen, this is how my body was created. And when I realized that my capacity as a woman to have sexual pleasure is actually more than a man’s capacity because of the, the nerve endings and because of, of how our bodies are created, I was just blown away with starting to understand how important the sexuality has to be for my wholeness as a person.
Dan: Yes. Can you speak on how you realize how your sexual energy about being a sexual person leads to creative energy and becomes a creative force in your
Tanya: Oh yeah, such a good question. So I’m 56. I
am in fully menopausal and the last time I went in and checked, had my hormones checked, my testosterone came at, came in at zero and
Dan: Mm hmm.
Tanya: know, some other factors in there, but, but in, in basically that means that I have like [00:15:00] zero natural libido going on in my body.
I don’t have the hormones that are pushing me toward that. And yet I still have desires for sex. And I think, think that that for me is because I have chosen to be a sexual person and I choose in my brain to step into this space where I, I want to engage sexually in my marriage because I know how valuable it is. In creating the kind of relationship that I want to have with my husband. And it is part of the emotional connection that we’re also able to create. Because I really don’t believe that we can have the emotional intimacy that we want. If we also don’t have the physical intimacy that we want. And vice versa. We can’t have the physical intimacy we want without the emotional intimacy. They are both, they’re just, they’re like intertwined. And I think I grew up a lot of those years thinking that [00:16:00] they were, they were opposite. In fact, um, I know the narrative in my brain all those years in my previous marriage was sexual intimacies on, on one side of the football field and emotional intimacies on the other. And they
just don’t come together. Right. They are separate, separate.
Dan: Or it’s a battle. Who’s going to prevail
here? Right? Who’s going to win?
Tanya: And it
was always this, like my, my ex husband coming in and saying, well, you can’t have the intimacy, the emotional intimacy until I have the physical. And I would say, well, but you can’t have the physical until I have the emotional and with both
of us just holding our ground and And fighting each other over which one was more important.
We were missing the real crux of the conversation. And that is that they are both vitally necessary and important to create the kind of relationships that we really want in our marriage. This deep, intimate, close, fun, [00:17:00] enjoyable, I
Dan: So, let’s double click on that a bit. How do you no longer see them at odds with each other, but how they work in harmony with each other? I’m speaking of the force for sexual desire and emotional intimacy. Uh
Tanya: think when, when my husband and I are engaging physically, there is a
vulnerability that is there that, that is very different than my previous marriage. My previous marriage, I was showing up with duty and obligation. Most of the time because I felt that that was my job and
Dan: But you’re guarded in the experience.
Tanya: Oh, yeah, absolutely
Absolutely guarded right because
it didn’t feel like a safe space
Dan: Mm hmm.
Tanya: felt honestly because I was showing up with duty and obligation. I was feeling used I
felt like I was just a body to be used and, and I think the, the flip side of that for [00:18:00] my ex husband was that he felt also that he was just being used
just, you know, so that I had a house and a car and kids and, and could take care of all of that.
And I think both of us didn’t have this ability to really step into the combination of, of emotional and physical intimacy that, that those two things combined create the oneness. That we’re
looking for. And so In my current marriage, I have a much better understanding of the sexual part of me and how vital that is for me as a whole person. And also understanding that when I can step into sexuality with vulnerability rather than obligation, then I’m willing to
engage at a completely different level than if I’m just engaging out of obligation or duty. Um, and as my husband also steps into A sexual relationship with way more than just [00:19:00] like, give me 10 minutes and I’m going to take care of business, right?
But also
this, this space that says, I want to, for both of us to have a really beautiful engaging experience. And it creates a safety there that I think women need to really have a good sexual experience. If we don’t feel emotionally safe, it is very, very difficult for us. To have a good positive experience, which is, I think, why so many women are like, so like pro emotional safety, right?
And
before we can step in because we know how vital that is for us, but we also forget that it’s, it’s an experience that’s for us as well, right?
Dan: Mm hmm. Let’s talk about emotional safety a little bit more. I think some men might think emotional safety. Well, safety. Like, I’m providing, I’m protecting my family, she has the car, she has the kids, she has the house, she has money in her bank account, isn’t that safety? By providing that, isn’t that giving her [00:20:00] safety?
And then yet, she says she doesn’t feel safe with me. What gives?
Tanya: That’s a good question. I,
I think that that’s a huge piece of what so many couples struggle with.
Dan: they misunderstanding something. What are they
Tanya: the misunderstanding?
is that women, we, it is so important that emotionally we feel safe, that we feel like we can be vulnerable, that we feel like we don’t have to be perfect in order to be loved. I know I spent a lot of years thinking that I did have to be perfect for my ex husband to love me. And, and so that put a lot of stress on me. But
it was all, it was all for me, right? It was all my own
Dan: hmm. Right, right self imposed,
Tanya: Where I
thought I had to be perfect. And, And, so I, I exhausted all my effort and energy trying to do all the things that I thought were going to make me a perfect wife. and then sexuality just was getting, you know, the dregs, the end, the leftovers at the end. but there’s this space of [00:21:00] emotional safety for a woman that our brains crave this safety. We have to feel safe. And if sexually, if I am literally going to let a man inside my body,
and if a man is stronger than me, if he’s bigger than me, if I don’t feel emotionally safe, my brain goes wild with.
Protect, protect, protect, right? It wants
to put me in this place where it’s saying, this is not a safe place for you. If I don’t feel like I am accepted and loved as I am, that my brain shuts down and my brain is like, no, this is, this is not a good safe place to be vulnerable, which is thank goodness for our brains, right?
They do keep us safe.
Um, and so this is why I think for women, especially this emotional safety, why we are so drawn to it and why we cling so tightly to it because our brains really push back against it if we don’t have it.
Dan: Can you give me a specific [00:22:00] example of a time you felt emotionally safe and what what that looks like? Just to put some more flesh to
this idea
Tanya: yeah, my current husband, I feel so much safer engaging in new activities that I may not have engaged in before. I know
Dan: because
Tanya: because I know that I’m not going to be teased about it. I know that
I’m not, it’s not going to be like, Oh, now it’s time. You’re going to do that. I there’s, there’s none of this sarcasm.
There’s none of this passive aggressive stuff that comes in and says, you know, like making fun of me or doing
something along those lines, making me feel
like I’m not enough. Like, I’m, like, I’m not good
enough. Women struggle enough in our lives with feeling like we are whole, like we have worth and value, like we’re enough. And when that message is exacerbated by a spouse always saying that we’re not doing sex quote unquote right.
Dan: Uhhuh.
Tanya: It just adds to that [00:23:00] disengagement for us that we’re like, whoa, like I’m not going to engage in this place. My brain automatically is like, yeah, you’re not safe here.
And, and so, so for me with my current husband, it’s always safe. I have never felt, like I was not enough sexually for him. even at the very beginning when I was still, like, learning the ropes of a very different kind of sexuality. Um, I had learned a lot of things, you know, through, through the stuff that I started learning. April Franks in that, that well sexed comment was about, Um, a little over a year before I got married to my husband and, I spent that year listening to podcasts and reading things and learning things and really figuring out that my sexuality was, was mine to own and that I was created to be sexual and that it was okay for me to engage in what previously I had thought were, were Forbidden activities,
um, because of the, [00:24:00] the tight religious upbringing that I had had, um, been exposed to as a child and, and so learning how to, to step into that was something that I wanted to do, but something that I was still uncomfortable doing. When I, when I first got, got married to my current husband and yet the safety that he created for me to go at my own pace at, at figuring things out in learning how to be more vocal in asking for what I want in learning how to give and receive in sexual ways that there was a learning curve there for me. And it, I could do that because it was always emotionally safe for me to engage in that. And,
Dan: and it was okay if you messed up. It was okay if things didn’t go well because he’s not gonna make fun of you. You know, he’s on your, uh, your side, he’s on your team, and, uh, there’s no like expectation. Mm-Hmm.
Tanya: there was, [00:25:00] there was no expectation that I should show up any different than I was. And, and granted I was showing up very different than my previous marriage in the sense that I wasn’t showing up out of obligation or duty. Um, and I had grown a lot and understood a lot and figured out a lot of pieces in there, but it’s still, I had 24 years of difficult sexual experiences that I was bringing to this new marriage
and it did take a lot of conscious engagement and awareness for me to choose to show up. And, and go into having the difficult conversations around sex that, that felt so foreign to me that did not happen in my previous marriage and conversations about what do I want? You know, what do I like,
what do I not like when, you know, even, even for me as a woman being able to say, I don’t like that or that hurts was super, [00:26:00] super scary for me right up front. Super
scary.
Dan: You felt you didn’t have space to say
Tanya: Right. Right. And, and it was scary because I thought, well, then I’m telling him that he’s doing it wrong. Right.
And I, and, and that was all part of this whole sex is for him mentality
that I had, that I didn’t
feel like I could say those things before. And so learning how to really step into that in my new marriage has definitely taken a learning curve.
And I would dare say that I’m, I’m still in it. Like I’m, I’m still finding new ways that I can verbalize better. what I want, you know, what, what I enjoy, what I don’t enjoy. And sometimes I still have this whole conversation going on in my head while we’re having sex about, can I say this? Can I not say this is, you know, and, and
he’s a, he’s a, I’ve never felt unsafe with him and yet my
brain still goes in sometimes into this huge protective.
I gotta be careful, right? I, I, because
I can’t [00:27:00] upset him, which has
nothing to do with him at all. It has everything to do with me for sure.
Dan: And that’s, you know, give yourself some grace here. You’ve had 50 years of that chatter in your head, so
it takes time to break those
Tanya: for sure. For sure. And I, and I get that. And I absolutely give myself a lot of grace and my
sweet husband gives me a lot of grace as well. And, and just creates this, you know, we’re just, this is ours to figure out together space. And part of the safety is he’s never said, this is your problem.
Figure it out. This is your, he’s always said, listen, this is ours. Our sexual engagement is ours. It’s not
mine. It’s not my sexual experience. It’s not your sexual experience. This is our sexual experience. And, and we’re here together. We’re in this together to do this. And, and so, you know, me working through my, my previous 24 years, mentality of my brain and what my brain
has learned to think and the [00:28:00] patterned behaviors and thinking around that, um, obviously takes some time to unravel.
And I was able to do some of that before we got married, but I’ve also had a lot of that to do since our marriage. But that emotional safety goes way beyond having a house and a car and food to eat. It goes
into the place where, where we treat each other with so much respect and so much kindness and so much gratitude that there’s nothing in the relationship that, that makes me feel unsafe.
And that’s a huge part, I think, of me. Being able to continue to want to show up and continue to want to, to, to push the boundaries a little bit, you know, into having a better sexual experience. Mm-Hmm.
Dan: We’re talking about emotional safety. But you, all of the conversation about emotional safety from the woman’s
perspective. I want to talk about emotional safety from the man’s perspective. Because this gets overlooked.
For example, let’s say I’ve [00:29:00] had a difficult day. And I get the courage to be vulnerable and open enough with my wife to tell her about what I’m going through. And if it’s met with criticism or dismissed, it doesn’t make it a safe place for me to be emotionally open. Uh, and then I get complaints that men aren’t emotionally connected as much as I would like to be.
Can you speak on that
Tanya: Oh, yeah. absolutely. And I I think that’s so true and And I think women are very quick to say, you don’t create emotional safety for me. But we often are not really great at creating emotional safety for the men as well.
I think sometimes we look at men as they’re strong, they’re powerful. And men have also been, been conditioned to think that weakness. is seen
invulnerability and that that weakness makes them undesirable and be strong at all [00:30:00] costs. And so, so they don’t want to share things. And when they courage up and they share something that might be a little bit vulnerable, like, Oh, this happened at work today.
And I’m really struggling with this. And when
we, as women blow them off and
when we don’t give them space to be a human who’s struggling as well, when we just, you know, cause I think a lot of times. Women internalize that and they say, Oh,
then that means I’m not doing my job. And then we get all insecure, but we have to realize that men are humans and they have all of this same stuff that we’ve got going on as well, maybe in different percentages, but then they
need a safe space to show up emotionally as well. And when they can share something with us and we go, Oh, sweetie. That sounds really, really tough. And we don’t try to fix it. We don’t try to tell them, it’s going to be fine. You’ll figure it out. There’s, you know, when we, when we don’t blow it off, but when we take it serious and we, we give them space to, to [00:31:00] share that stuff and make it safe for them as well to share their emotional struggles.
Dan: Sometimes what we’re saying is inconvenient to hear. I’m thinking of a guest I had on my podcast. He really struggled with the pornography use, but kept it hidden
from his wife because he was really afraid with how his wife would respond. But it was a struggle. He was not proud of it. He was really ashamed of it.
And then, um, He finally told his wife and she blew up. She right. Like shamed him. Like we got to get counseling. This is like grounds for divorce. Well, however she reacted, I don’t remember. Now it’s like, I’m not going to tell her anything ever again.
Tanya: And rightfully so because his brain goes into protective mode, right? Like he’s not a
safe space for me to, to share this stuff.
Dan: Right. So, it, the problem got deeper and deeper entrenched.
More hiding, more lying. and then she’s wondering, how come you don’t open
up to me about things? [00:32:00]
Uh huh. So, it cuts both ways. So I liked that scene from the movie, a few good men, it’s a Tom Cruise movie where he’s like, we just want to know the truth. And the guy says, you can’t handle the truth, right?
Like we gotta be able to handle the truth,
so to speak. And that takes a lot of maturity, a lot of patience, and especially when it’s inconvenient, we need to learn how to kind of settle down in receiving that,
Tanya: Brown talks about in one of her books about how after one of her presentations on vulnerability, she had a man come up to her and he was like, listen, my wife and daughters would rather see me die on the battlefield. than admit a weakness. And,
and, and that same idea that you’re talking about, that as soon as a man admits a weakness, the woman freaks out and is like, what, I’m not safe.
Like you, you’re not strong. You’re not this huge person that you were, that you’re
supposed to be. Right. Just. [00:33:00] Just as women have these societal standards, so do men. And the societal standard for men is you always have to be strong and never be weak and have this. And so, so men buy into that as well. And so when they choose to step into some vulnerability and we as women shut them down and say,
no, I won’t accept you with that weakness.
I won’t accept you with that insecurity. I won’t accept
you with that fear. Then of course, they’re not going to show up in vulnerability ever again because they are not accepted. And told that they are not. important
to us that they are not of worth to us.
Dan: And emasculated in the process.
Tanya: Right. And so of
course they shut down and then we wonder why there’s not emotionally, more emotional engagement from men because it’s
not safe for them to go there.
Oh,
Dan: Tanya, this has been a fantastic conversation. I’m learning so much from you about the value of emotional safety and also the, how important it is that couples be a real team in the bedroom. [00:34:00] As we conclude this episode, can you share maybe one or two tools that you have now that you wish you would have had earlier that you hope other listeners will learn to make
Tanya: Yeah. Oh, Absolutely. The first two that come to mind is one, we have to start seeing each other as equals. And, and that does not mean like we take our checklists out and they kind of match out with time and weight and all of that. It means that I look at my husband and I go, you are my equal in every way. And
he looks at me and has the same thought and we have to treat each other as equals. I think that that is such a vital, vital space. And I think our natural person tendencies is to very often go into one up or one down thinking. And that’s
Dan: Mm hmm. What’s one up or one down thinking for
Tanya: Oh gosh. So one up is, is more of a grandiose kind of mentality that says I’m better than you and you’re worse than [00:35:00] me and
Dan: Uh huh.
Tanya: not quite as good.
And the one down is like, well, I’m worse than you. I’m less than. And so here’s an example. Like, um, in my previous marriage, I would often go into a very socialized one down place.
Where I felt like at church and societally in the seventies and eighties, I was raised with this idea that women were just a little bit less than men. Like
it was our job to make sure that the men were, were well sexed, right? It was our job
to, to make sure that they were happy to keep not. You know, have contention in the home. It was our job to make sure that everybody was happy and that we were to always just like make people happy and then go stand really small in the corner of the room and then just come out and fix things as we needed to fix things.
Like we were in this one down space and
Dan: like a
supporting role, but never the main role.
Uh huh. Uh
Tanya: And,
in that we were a little bit less than, and so I, I took that on because I was like, listen, I, it doesn’t feel right. feel [00:36:00] genuine to me, but this is what I’ve been told I’m supposed to do to make a happy marriage. And shocker, none of that helped create a happy marriage.
But I would
show up in this one down space of this is my job to make sure everybody’s happy. My wants and needs really don’t matter. But then I would flip into the one up and go, and I’m so much more righteous than you because look at me making all the sacrifices, right? I was always either better
than him because I was making the sacrifices or less than him because. It was my job to support him in his career, his church calling in the home. I was supposed to make everything easy. And so we stepped, I spent so many years in this one up one down place. And I, I think most of us spend most of our time in this one up one down place. And so as a coach, one thing I work with my clients on so much is let’s come into equal and what does
equal look like? And this is what’s so fascinating is most of us. We can [00:37:00] identify our one up and one down behaviors and go, Oh yeah, that’s a one up behavior. That’s a one down. And when I say, well, what would equal look like in this context? They’re always like, I have no idea.
Yeah, we don’t
know because we don’t see it modeled.
We, most of us didn’t see it
modeled in our parents marriage, in our friends parents marriage. We don’t see it modeled with our friends. We don’t see it modeled at church. We don’t see it modeled on TV shows or in movies. We always see one up, one down modeled. Um,
and so we just don’t know that, but I think one tool is Figure out how to become equals to treat
each other as equals.
That is such a vital piece. And another piece of, of that, I think that super has been super important for my husband and I is we have something that we call no backburner issues.
And no backburner issues ever. Like if there is something that is, is difficult for me, or if he says something or does something or, or something in, in our marriage, that’s difficult and vice versa, right. [00:38:00] It is brought to the table and we talk about it, but we also have rules around how to talk about it in ways that, so no blaming, no accusing, no attacking, no criticizing. Those we, we can’t do. And so when we bring something to the table, we. We bring it up with, um, in a way that says, listen, when this happened.
So that’s just a basic circumstance, right? Here’s the fact when you said, quote, here it is. I
felt dismissed because I was thinking that, that my viewpoint didn’t matter.
And, and so we, we bring up this thing, totally owning my own. And then a
lot of times we’ll even, I’ll even follow that up with, I know it’s my own brain.
I know it’s
my brain thinking that I don’t matter and thinking that this is happening, but, but it’s, it’s really hard for me. And I do feel very dismissed because I’m thinking that, but I would like to understand what you’re thinking about this. [00:39:00] Like what, what was happening for you when that was said and creating just this really safe space that says, listen, I’m not accusing, attacking, blaming, or criticizing you. I just want you to know what’s going on in my head. And when I get his side of the story, very often I’m like, Oh, that totally makes sense. Now I see my thinking more clearly and I can see that I was off base with my thinking, or he can see my thinking and he can go, Oh, you know what? That’s, that’s kind of true.
So like there was one time that I, um, about a year and a half ago I had an ACL repaired. So
my husband was like having to do all the things, right? Cause I could get out of bed
for four days and, and on day five I could get downstairs. And I was reaching, reaching, reaching for some napkins. And he’s like, I can get those for you.
And in my brain, I’m thinking, well, you know, you’ve, you’ve already done too much. Like, like you’re getting tired of having to serve me. And you’re, you know, you’re
Dan: Uh huh. Fear of
[00:40:00] being a burden. Uh
Tanya: and he was like, he was like, well, he’s like, but no, I don’t feel like, so I told him that I said, well, I just feel like, like I’m being a burden to you and that this is too much.
And he’s like, no, that’s not true. That’s not true. And he immediately like within 10 seconds, he goes, actually, let me circle back around on that. He’s like,
Actually, this has been really hard for me. And it
has taken up a lot of time that I’m not used to doing. But that also doesn’t mean that I’m not happy to do it. And
so he could have very,
Dan: That’s more honest.
Tanya: like the
gaslighting that, that initially happened this, no, this is fine. Like I got it. I’m strong. I’m not weak. I can do all the things. His initial response was a little, was, was like gaslighting, right? It was telling me that what I was perceiving. was false. But
when he caught that, immediately he came back around and he was like, no, you know what? Let me try that again. You are absolutely right. That [00:41:00] I, I have been feeling like it’s a lot and I’m, I’m doing a lot and I am feeling some stress about having to pick up all this extra stuff. And. I’m happy to do it. And, and
so, so, this space where no backburner issues, we,
everything gets put on the table.
You know, if I feel like he’s, he’s getting frustrated or something with me, that gets put out on the table, but always in this loving kind way that just says, Hey, this is what I’m perceiving. This is what I’m feeling. This is what I’m thinking. Will you help me understand what’s going on for you? and so we create this really safe space to have these conversations and it makes all the difference.
So I think like no backburner issues, seeing each other as equals. Really clear communication without the blaming, accusing, attacking, or criticizing is, is vital to, to creating the kind of miraculous, beautiful relationship that, that he and I have been able to create.
Dan: Tanya, this [00:42:00] has been fantastic. You’re just full of so much wisdom. Where can people go to learn more about
Tanya: Oh gosh, I have a podcast called
Intentional Living with Tanya Hale and I talk about all of these tools that I use. I work a lot with, with people in miserable marriages. So You know, people
who are struggling. I work a lot with people who, are trying to decide whether to get divorced. Or, you know, in the middle or after divorce and picking up the pieces or people, a lot of times come and they’re like, well, we don’t want to get divorced, but gosh, darn it.
We don’t know how to clean this up. And we work a lot on creating equal relationships, showing up equal, equal, being the kind of person that you really want to be. So I have my podcast. I have a website, tanyahill. com that people can find me at. And I’m also on, Instagram and Facebook under Tanya Hale, LDS Life Coaching. and yeah, I, I love this work that I do. I work with couples, I work with singles and just brilliant, brilliant work. [00:43:00] It’s, it’s made a huge difference in my life. And I get to see some amazing, miraculous things in my clients as well. So
Dan: That’s so good. Very good. Well,
thank
Tanya: you.
It’s been a pleasure to be here and to see, Some of what I figured out of regarding my sexuality and and how that works for me.
.
Dan: Thank you for listening to this episode, please share it along with our apps and timidly us. And just between us with their married friends. I promise they will thank you for life. If you want a more meaningful sexual and intimate connection in your marriage, I invite you to check out my, get your marriage on program.
Over a hundred couples have said this program packs tremendous value and has helped their intimacy grow to the next level. Now go get your marriage on.
