Most people think being a good spouse means being selfless, accommodating, and easygoing.
But what if those same habits are quietly creating resentment, frustration, and disconnection?
In this episode, we’re joined by Stu Murray, a men’s leadership coach, to discuss the “Nice Guy Pattern”—the tendency to suppress your own needs, avoid conflict, and hope your partner will magically figure out what you want.
Together we explore:
• What covert contracts are and why they create resentment
• Why people-pleasing often leads to less intimacy, not more
• How unspoken expectations damage emotional safety
• The connection between honesty, desire, and attraction
• Why many men struggle to express what they really want
• Practical steps to stop self-abandoning and start showing up authentically
If you’ve ever thought, “After everything I do, why don’t I feel appreciated?” this episode is for you.
You’ll learn how greater honesty, responsibility, and authenticity can create stronger connection—and often more intimacy—in your marriage.
Episode Resources
Come cuise with us this fall!
Don’t miss out on the International Lovemaking Day Challenge going on now in the Intimately Us app!
Find Stu on Instagram: @iamstumurray
Disclaimer: The opinions and values expressed by guests on the Get Your Marriage On! podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions and values of the host. Appearance on the podcast does not imply an endorsement of the guest or their products by Get Your Marriage On or its host. While we work hard to bring you quality and valuable content, listeners are encouraged to use their own best judgment in applying the information or products discussed on this podcast.
Guest: Stu Murray
Stu Murray is a men’s leadership coach who helps high-performing men move from external success to internal trust. After years of people-pleasing and performance-based living nearly cost him everything, he spent a decade studying masculine development, embodiment work, and authentic leadership. Today, he guides men through the masculine initiation their fathers never gave them—building self-trust, presence, and the ability to lead from truth instead of image.
Transcript
This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors or inaccuracies. For the most accurate and complete experience, we recommend listening to the full podcast episode.
Stu: intimacy and sexual desire breaks down often because a lack of emotional safety within the relationship
Dan: Okay.
Stu: that safety is created from me being honest.
Dan: Uhhuh.
Stu: able to just be present with what is and to make decisive decisions, to put my needs out there and to, you know, she knows where I stand.
Dan: Maybe you’ve fallen into this trap like I have in the past where I think, “Okay, if I do X, Y, or Z,” let’s use stereotypes here, “I wanna have s*x with my wife, so I’m gonna do the [00:01:00] dishes, I’m gonna help the kids with homework, put them to bed, offer to give her a massage. And then if I do those things, she’ll be relaxed, and then she’ll want to be intimate with me.”
A lot of times this happens, this pattern happens in our relationships, and the technical term we’re gonna use for this is called a covert contract, which we’ll get to learn more about here in this episode. But essentially, it is this idea that I’ve created an expectation that I haven’t communicated, but in my mind, my spouse has already agreed with me this is gonna happen.
And when it doesn’t happen, I am really disappointed and hurt. We’re gonna talk about this more in depth in this episode. Also, a lot of patterns that what we’re gonna say nice guys fall into. It’s nice guys are, is the people-pleasing style. Nice guys aren’t always really nice. It’s, it’s different than being kind and good, and we use nice in air quotes here.
My guest today is Stu Murray. He is a man that has a lot of experience and study in this area, [00:02:00] and he’s got a lot of great things he’s gonna share. He’s gonna talk about his career, talk about a time when he blew up a very important intimate relationship because he didn’t honor his own boundaries.
And you’re gonna hear about a story about how he rebuilt himself and h- his idea of what healthy masculinity looks like. Now, if you want some adventure with you and your spouse, we just have a few spots left for our upcoming cruise. This is sailing October 4 through 10, and it’s an intimacy cruise. And we’re spelling intimacy with S-E-A on the end.
Isn’t that clever? Intimacy. And this is an opportunity to vacation with us, and we’ll do a deep dive on s*xual intimacy with you on this wonderful time as we vacation to the Western Caribbean. You’ll find those details at getyourmarriageon.com and click Events. Scroll down. You’ll see that link and information there.
Also, We’re right in the middle of [00:03:00] the, International Lovemaking Day Challenge. Guys, next Tuesday is, June 9th. This is, like, my favorite holiday of the year. It is 6/9 on the calendar, and I hope you and your spouse celebrate this wonderful day by making wonderful love because it’s International Lovemaking Day.
Of course, we need every excuse we can to enjoy ourselves. But more on the serious note, I just really appreciate all of you that are participating in our challenge through the Intimately Us app. If you don’t have this app, download it right away. It’s free on the, on the Google Play Store and on the Apple App Store, Intimately Us.
You’ll see all the information about the challenge and what’s going on there, and it’s not too late to join. All right. let’s get started and talk about covert contracts, masculine leadership with Stu Murray.
Stu, welcome to the Get Your Marriage On Podcast. It’s great to have you here today.
Stu: It’s great to be here, [00:04:00] Dan. Thank you.
Dan: Now I’m with a man who is building his own house, which I think is amazing. You know, with I, this isn’t when people say they build a house, what they usually mean is they hired a contractor to build the house. But no, you’re like building the entire thing with, you know, with your family and with your hands.
And that’s incredible. I don’t have that skill. So hat’s off to you.
Stu: Thank you. I’m learning it.
Dan: That’s good. Alright. Have you ever had a time where, uh, in the same day you had like the highest of highs and then the lowest of lows,
Stu: Yeah. Yeah. One comes to mind that, uh, I used to work actually in public education
Dan: Uhhuh.
Stu: very passionate about reforming education to be more experiential and really, you know, put the kid at the heart of education. So I was presenting to over 500 teachers that day. Things were going great, and I had actually received a standing ovation and the people were very, you know, impressed with this, with this model, and, uh, found it really relatable.
And so I [00:05:00] was, you know, up, fired up, ready to bring that energy home and celebrate with my partner. I had made the, made the food that night and cleaned up and was just riding this high and all of a sudden started to notice this little bit of resentment inside and. And then we engaged in a conversation and that resentment spilled into the conversation.
And honestly, Dan, I can’t even remember what that exact conversation was, but I
Dan: All right,
Stu: the feeling inside
Dan: Uhhuh.
Stu: just coming around my chest. And I was like, well, my needs aren’t being met. I’m not feeling seen like from this high of celebration to Don’t care about me. I’m not worthy. And then all of a sudden, I just remember blowing up. there I was standing in the kitchen at like 10:00 PM at night and I’m like, how, how did this happen? How did I go from one of the best moments of my career to, you know, the, with the one person who mattered most in my life? I
Dan: Uhhuh,[00:06:00]
Stu: it together.
Dan: right? Oh my. Why does that happen? I, that’s so relatable. That, you know, happens to all of us.
Stu: Hopefully not too frequently, but it does. It does,
Dan: at the heart of the matter?
Stu: The, the heart of that for me, in my experience was this underlying pattern of needing to people please and.
Dan: Hmm.
Stu: You know, I’ve learned, I’ve started calling that the Nice Guy Pattern,
Dan: Uh.
Stu: and really what’s happening there is are going well in a relationship and it’s flowing.
But when you know, the honeymoon starts to phase and things start to normalize, I start to realize I’ve abandoned myself. So what happens is I never really got clear on what I wanted in a relationship or what my needs were in a relationship. I certainly didn’t express them because I was scared of being rejected. And then I would go above and beyond. To try and meet her, all of her needs.
Dan: Uh.
Stu: I created this, covert or unconscious [00:07:00] contract that it
Dan: Uhhuh,
Stu: if I go above and meet all of her needs and do everything right, well then mine will just magically be met
Dan: right?
Stu: asking for them, without ever putting it out there, without taking a risk
or, you know, expressing what I want. And the way that showed up for me often was frustration and resentment.
And so I’d just get this slow boiling simmer of resentment that would happen, and then, you know, another need not being met, another boundary being crossed that I never spoke up for
I never put in. So I didn’t ask for needs and I didn’t have my boundaries ever voiced, and just hoped that somehow she would read my mind and figure it out
Dan: Uhhuh.
Stu: all of a sudden that simmer became a boil, and then it would lead to a blow up.
Dan: Yeah, let’s talk a little more about covert contracts. That’s a term I like, but to the listener who’s never heard that before, like you explained it a little bit, can we go a little bit deeper on that and how does one recognize that they have a covert [00:08:00] contract over X, Y, or Z? Maybe you can give me another example of something like a pattern, a common covert contract pattern.
I’ll start there.
Stu: Yep. That makes sense. So a covert contract is really just. An unconscious agreement that one person unilaterally makes in a relationship.
Dan: Okay.
Stu: And so it, we got, I kind of silently make this agreement for, for two people in a relationship, but it’s never communicated and the other person does not agree to that contract.
Dan: Right Uhhuh.
Stu: an example of that might be, a really, a really common one. be, I’m gonna come home tonight and I’m gonna do the dishes.
Dan: Uhhuh
Stu: the food, I’m gonna, you know, put on some music and do all these things and, and really take care to make this a good night. And you know what, that’s gonna lead to
Dan: sex. Lots of it. Really good one. Really good sex too.
Stu: lots of it.
Yeah. So I’m doing the dishes, I’m making all the things happen. I’m taking care of everything and I know what’s on on the other side of that. And sure enough, at the [00:09:00] end of the night, it doesn’t happen.
Dan: Uh, she’s like, oh, I’m so grateful you did the dishes. So grateful you made dinner and filled the bathtub. I’m so relaxed. Thank you, honey. I’m gonna go to bed now.
Stu: Yeah. Thank you. I’m tired. That was wonderful. And I’m sitting that you’re sitting there wondering
Dan: Like, wait,
Stu: happened?
Dan: uh, you owe me.
Stu: Yeah, yeah, exactly. You owe me.
Dan: But it’s covert.
It’s not overt. It’s not like saying, if I do this, you give it to me. It’s You thought it was implied, right?
Stu: And
Dan: It wasn’t spoken. I,
Stu: um, there’s a saying I think from Neil Strauss. It’s like, um, uh, unspoken expectations become premeditated resentments.
Dan: okay. I like that.
Stu: Yes. And so anytime that’s the unspoken agreement, no matter how many nice things I do, if that’s not clear and explicit and we both didn’t agree to it. Well, then I’m entering into a one-way contract.
Dan: Yeah. Why is that [00:10:00] unattractive? On the other end of that, in this situation? Your wife, like, can wives sense that? Can partners sense that there’s. Some sort of a covert motive behind these things. First of all, let’s start there.
Stu: single time.
Dan: Yeah. We think we’re hiding the hiding it, but they can sniff it out a mile away.
Stu: Yeah, women are in incredibly intuitive
Dan: Uhhuh men are too, but yes, exactly
Stu: yeah, men are, men are too. You know, we are, we’re intuitive beings and we’re gonna sense when something’s off at a deeper level.
Dan: right.
Stu: I don’t know, for me, at least for most of my life, I thought, well, if I’m just nice, if I can please, if I can do these things, then I’ll get the things that I want in
Dan: Uhhuh,
Stu: And what would happen for me every single time is that. Sexual intimacy and desire would always break down, and I’d get a lack of desire coming from my partner toward me,
Dan: uh.
Stu: couldn’t figure it out. But what I’ve come to understand is that intimacy and [00:11:00] sexual desire breaks down often because a lack of emotional safety within the relationship
Dan: Okay.
Stu: that safety is created from me being honest.
Dan: Mm-hmm.
Stu: what I want, where I want to go with the relationship and how I’m leading.
Dan: Uh,
Stu: am able to put up boundaries. When I mean no, I say no
Dan: uh.
Stu: and actually be able to deal with the feminine storm or you know, when things are, are going on and chaotic around, I don’t collapse and I don’t blow.
Dan: Uhhuh.
Stu: able to just be present with what is and to make decisive decisions, to put my needs out there and to, you know, she knows where I stand. If she doesn’t know where I stand, if she doesn’t know what I want, if she doesn’t know what’s going on, she’s not gonna have awareness into my internal world, and that’s not going to feel safe, and that will not create connection.
Dan: Right. Yeah. that makes sense. So,
why does a person not want to be more [00:12:00] overt with their desires or expressing it in the first place? Why do they go for more of a nice guy covert approach to begin with? Why does that feel intuitive to, to the nice guy?
Stu: yeah, that’s an excellent question. And there’s a few things I think a lot of nice guys were raised by mothers who taught their sons not to be controlling or domineering or oppressive any in any way, which makes sense. and the lack of examples of what healthy rooted masculinity. Looks like, you know, this, this clear transmission that’s modeled to a young boy who’s growing up and it’s like, Ooh, that’s, that’s solid, that’s stable. So he’s out there trying to figure out on his own.
Dan: Right. Uh.
Stu: so what that looks like at that point, well, if then I, I should be nice. If I shouldn’t be dominating, if I shouldn’t be, you know, controlling in any of these ways, then, um, the pendulum swings so far. In the other direction that I become soft, I over prioritize her emotions over my own. so then you know what that [00:13:00] looks like. And what happens is I’ll start walking on eggshells in the relationship, so kind of tippy toeing around any sensitive topic. I want to avoid conflict
Dan: Yep.
Stu: all costs and speak to any unresolved tension.
I’m going to really just get in the state where I’m gonna prioritize her emotions rather than
speaking my truth. And that makes sense
Dan – May 2025: It feels good too in the moment. Like, like you’re doing the selfless thing, right? You’re caring about other people. On the surface it looks like a good thing,
Dan: but
Dan – May 2025: where’s the trap in that? ?
Stu: Conflict’s uncomfortable.
Dan: Yeah.
Stu: it’s, it makes sense that we want to avoid it, but the trap in that is if I’m not ever expressing my emotions or saying what I’m, what’s going on for me or what I want, then I become a shell of a human being.
Somebody that doesn’t have needs, somebody that doesn’t have desires. How do you feel attracted to somebody without needs and desires or who knows what they want? Like, I think there’s something incredibly. Attractive about a kind [00:14:00] grounded person who knows what they want, who’s able to express what’s on their heart, who’s able to ask for what they want and, and take decisive action in life.
There’s something incredibly attractive about somebody when they’re able to actually do that. And when you don’t have that, of a sudden you’re left with like, who is this person? Who is this person? And you know, like the traction just starts to fade and fizzle.
Dan: That’s great. Great. I was working with a couple long time ago. One of the, situations they brought up is they’re going on a trip in their marriage. He’s the one that’s a lot more anxious about sex happening. Than she is. He wants to make sure it happens. But he resents the fact that when they go on vacations, she doesn’t think about packing any of their sexy things.
He feels like it’s all on him. And if he doesn’t pack it, then sex isn’t gonna happen. So he’s the one like packing the vibrator and the lingerie and the lube and the condoms or whatever it is, right? And so they [00:15:00] arrive and. it’s as if she didn’t even think twice Oh. To pack those things and he wishes it was more of a, shared endeavor.
do you see the covert contract in that, or at least where the resentment is coming from? can you break that down with your model in that situation?
Stu: Yeah. And the, honestly, the first thing, if I were talking to this man, I would ask him, have you ever talked to her about it?
Have you ever told her
Dan: Uhhuh,
Stu: want, what you really desire, and how you want to take her? And when you’re on this trip, you wanna go out and do these things and then go back and have fun and, and really like, they clear on where they want to go with their intimacy?
Like one of the big things that happens in those situations is it’s almost a rhetorical question because often the answer is no is did you tell this person you actually had these needs and desires? it’s like, well. No. Right. I like, I was just hoping that we could, you know, if I took these steps and did these things, like I don’t see why she wouldn’t want it,[00:16:00]
Dan: Mm-hmm. Right.
Stu: all of a sudden where that resentment builds and she’s now in some agreement that she never signed up for.
Dan: Yeah. Good point.
Stu: So really that lack of honesty right away is, is going to be this thing that compromises safety in a relationship. And if there’s that lack of safety or she’s even gonna pick up on that little signal that, Hey, he’s doing all these things here and packing all these things, but not expressing it, and just hoping it manifests.
And then when all of his expectations don’t match to the reality, now we’ve got, now we’ve got an issue.
Dan: Yes, there’s an element of control or manipulation, and you’re trying to control an outcome, but it’s a very covert approach, and people don’t like feeling controlled from their spouses at all.
Stu: Nor manipulated,
Dan: Yeah, we’re manipulated at all. Okay. All right. Let’s say you’ve identify, yeah, I do this a lot, or this is manifesting, or this is happening a lot in my relationship.[00:17:00]
Do you have two or three tips on how you can move from that? We’ll call it the nice guy to something a little more solid like you’ve described
Stu: A hundred percent. think the first thing to do before you bring this into your relationship is to
Dan: Uhhuh.
Stu: clear yourself
Dan: Okay.
Stu: and your desires are.
Dan: All right.
Stu: the, you know, the man to really sit like, what do I want in the relationship? What needs do I have that I’m not voicing? And honestly, it might feel like a stretch because if you’ve been stuck in that nice guy pattern, you might get to this one and feel stuck.
You’re like, I am actually abandoning myself so much that I don’t even know what I want.
Dan: Oh,
Stu: I don’t even
Dan: So what do you want? Yeah, get clear on that.
Stu: So that’s a big place to start, is to actually get clear and, and what am I saying yes to that I should really be saying no to?
Dan: Yes.
Stu: So, it’s pretty much an assessment or an audit of like, what do I want and where am I abandoning myself?
That would be the first place to really get honest
[00:18:00] with what am I not voicing and what do I need to really step into and either ask for or put boundaries up around.
Dan: Gotcha. Like in the example of that husband and wife planning the vacation, it would be for him to get really clear on, why do I go through with the unpacking it and resenting it the whole time?
Stu: Mm-hmm.
Dan: why am I not clear on expressing. Maybe we can collaborate better on what kind of outcome we have.
Why do I feel like I need to control things and like set things up so that I get what I want? Like, I’m looking for control, outside of me for this. Right. Identifying that at,
Stu: Right. And then he might start to realize, Ooh, I’m actually terrified of rejection. This has
Dan: that’s right.
Stu: with her.
Dan: Yeah, exactly right.
Stu: because the thing is like. In that situation, you know, I may or may not be the problem, but I am the solution. And so the
second I start to get radically honest
Dan: Uhhuh.[00:19:00]
Stu: the things I’m, doing or not doing, or not saying or bringing into the relationship, then I’m finally in a place where I can take radical responsibility we had discussed previously, like taking radical responsibility for my part in the relationship is extremely sexy.
Dan: Great. So that’s probably your second point. Take radical responsibility.
Stu: Yes.
Dan: Good?
Stu: thing I’ll say around that is it helps to do this work with other men
Dan: Mm-hmm.
Stu: and to not make your partner your therapist.
Dan: Uhhuh,
Stu: your mother.
Dan: right.
Stu: you know, once I get clear, ooh, I’m actually scared of rejection. I’m actually terrified of, of leaning into these places. And this, I know part of what needs to change, but I’m not sure how to do it. with other men is a really. baseline to do this because it’s like, oh, I can know all of the tools and all of the tactics and all of the things, but then I get to the point where I need to be [00:20:00] honest, or I need to lean in and initiate a conversation or express my desire, and that’s when I collapse. And so I need to build my capacity, you know, with a coach or with a men’s group or with other men where I can be honest about where I’m not fully being authentic in my relationship. then I can. Get that practice in so that when the moment comes just like an athlete, we’re ready for the game.
Dan: That does help. Great.
All right. So Stu, I get it. Number one, get really clear yourself. Number two is be radically honest. Three, surround yourself with other men, right? Don’t make your spouse, your therapist, per se. Is there any other advice or another step you would do to expand on that?
Stu: Yeah, the the final one, and this is a reminder that I actually still need all the time, is. Be okay to get it wrong.
Dan: That’s a good one. Uhhuh, right? Uhhuh? Yeah.
Stu: you know, it’s like, okay, you know, one of, I’ve been working with one of my clients and we called it Turn up the Suck.
Dan: Okay.
Stu: like, go, [00:21:00] go and be willing to
Dan: Let it suck.
Stu: rejection.
Let it suck. You know, like, ask for something and be okay getting rejected, you know, or try trying to put up a boundary and it’s like, Ooh, that didn’t go so great. But you know what, at least I’m, I’m. Playing, I’m playing around with it. So bring a sense of play, bring a sense of curiosity, take some pressure and some performance out of it.
Dan: That’s good. Great. And just let it be. Don’t, don’t take it so seriously. Like
Stu: Yeah.
Dan: Right. Sometimes
Stu: it’s an antidote, uh, play is often the antidote to the,
Dan: Uhhuh.
Stu: and the performance that we put on ourselves.
Dan: Yeah, I say this jokingly, but sometimes even lowering our expectations is a path to happiness,
Stu: A hundred percent.
Dan: right? Because, if your expectations are high and unattainable, it’s gonna be really difficult to relax and enjoy whatever it is that you were doing. So sometimes having, you know, allowing yourself a little bit of slack, giving your spouse a lot of [00:22:00] slack.
It would
Stu: Yeah.
Dan: would be great for all that
Stu: And then, then you exceed the expectation and hey, that’s great.
Dan: you’re right. Right. Good. Do you have a story from yourself or maybe someone you’ve worked with that’s implemented 1, 2, 3, 4, that you’ve talked about today and to find a lot more happiness in their relationship?
Stu: Yeah, absolutely. Actually, there’s one that comes to mind because it’s quite fresh and, a man came to me and they’d only had sex. I think like twice in the last six months.
Dan: Okay.
Stu: was, uh, you know, intimacy was in need of some serious CPR
and, some revival. And, you know, he was holding a lot of resentment, a lot of tension around wanting, he wanted sex, he wanted connection, he wanted intimacy, he wanted for him that was able to help him open his heart.
Dan: Yep.
Stu: was just feeling not desired and, know, not attractive.
Dan: Uhhuh.
Stu: impacting his life in, in every. Every place despite being successful at work. It kind of was this little rain cloud that followed him [00:23:00] around.
Dan: Uhhuh.
Stu: when we started working together, I actually asked him, so, you know, what, what have you done to voice this to her?
Dan: Uh,
Stu: And he, he really paused and just kind of froze there. And you could see there was some computation happening
Dan: uh,
Stu: and he, he realized, you know, the only time I ever actually opened up. In this when I was already frustrated and we were in the heat of conflict.
Dan: Uhhuh.
Stu: So he never proactively brought his needs, his situation.
So we started with that honest inventory for him to actually get clear on where all the places that he’s self abandoning in the relationship. And with that accountability and support, he started taking radical responsibility. checking in with me on a weekly basis to make sure, hey, you know, that thing.
That was really scary that I didn’t wanna have that conversation. Oh, we had it. And actually it went way better than I thought and it wasn’t that bad. And, you know, within, actually within three weeks, they had more sex in three weeks than they had in the last year.[00:24:00]
Dan: Wow. Uh, good. Yeah,
Stu: Uh, amazing. So it, uh, you know,
Dan: it works. Worked for him. Uhhuh?
Stu: Yeah. It worked for him.
Dan: Good. Great. the work you do is good. You help men with, getting more grounded, become more stronger in their masculinity, to work with their nice guy tendencies, help them find more of a self. Where can people go to learn more about what you do?
Stu: Yeah, absolutely. Um. One of the best places to go to just even dive deeper into this would be on, uh, I’ve got a YouTube channel where I break down all of these concepts. So anybody who’s looking to understand more about the nice guy or the pleasing tendencies or why that comes up and what to do about it, they can go check me out at, uh, on YouTube at I Am Stuy.
Dan: Great.
Stu: a, a fantastic place to start.
Dan: Awesome. Well, thank you very much.
Stu: My pleasure. Thank you for having me on, Dan.
Dan: Thank you for listening to this episode. I hope it’s given you some ideas of things to think about in how to improve your intimate [00:25:00] relationship with your spouse. If you’d like some hands-on help, like actual side-by-side helping you through this, Get Your Marriage On offers coaching, whether from myself or from my colleagues.
We’re professionals at this. You can find more details at getyourmarriageon.com. Also, uh, if you have friends that are married that you think should listen to this podcast, please share it with them. Uh, they might thank you for life. Meanwhile, go get your marriage on
