If you were to pause and think about your very best sexual experiences that you’ve ever had, can you identify what made them so great?
For many years, academics studying human sexuality at universities were primarily interested in figuring out what goes wrong in the bedroom so they can fix it and get back up to baseline functioning. But, the guest I interview in this episode took a very different approach: she didn’t just want to study people who are experiencing sexual dysfunction, she wanted to study people with extraordinary sex lives and what they were doing right.
Dr. Peggy Kleinplatz is a sex therapist and part of the faculty at the University of Ottawa. She’s written several books (mostly textbooks for other sex therapists to read), but she wrote one book with Dr. Dana Menard for the rest of us called Magnificent Sex, sharing her breakthroughs and her research on how to acheive optimal sex. She is also the founder of OptimalSexualExperiences.com, a resource for group therapies all over.
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TRANSCRIPT
This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors or inaccuracies. For the most accurate and complete experience, we recommend listening to the full podcast episode.
Dan: Can I just begin to say a big thank you for tuning into this podcast? I think of you listener all of the time, whether you’re out walking the dog, doing [00:01:00] housework, driving around, or I don’t know, maybe on a date with your spouse. I just really appreciate you taking the time to be here today, and I want to invest in your marriage.
I’d love to hear what topics you want to hear in the future and how I can help you with your marriage to take it to the next level. And you can always send me an email or you can drop me a message. line anonymously through my website. Now, my dear listener, if you were to pause and think about your very best sexual experiences that you’ve ever had, can you identify what made them so great?
As you know, a great birthday cake has the cake layer, but that alone doesn’t make for a great cake. You put frosting on it and other decorations on top of it. Now, the cake is You need that, but just a cake without the frosting or the sprinkles or other adornments just isn’t quite the same thing.
For many years, academics studying human sexuality at universities were primarily interested in figuring out what goes [00:02:00] wrong in the bedroom so they can fix it. Their goal was to help people bake a better cake, right? How do you get the couples who are not functioning well to get them back up to a healthy baseline?
Or, in their words, good enough again in the bedroom. Again, they’re approaching sexual issues like a psychologist trying to help someone with depression or some other condition where they’re trying to help them get back up to baseline functioning. But, the guest interviewing today took a very different approach.
She wanted to know what constitutes the frostings, the toppings, and other great adornments that make the cake so memorable and worth eating. In other words, she didn’t just want to study people who are experiencing sexual dysfunction. She wanted to study people with extraordinary sex lives and what they were doing right.
Dr. Peggy Kleinplatz is a sex therapist and part of the faculty at the University of Ottawa. She’s written several books, mostly textbooks for other sex therapists to read, but she wrote [00:03:00] one book with Dr. Dana Menard for the rest of us called Magnificent Sex, sharing her breakthroughs and her research.
It’s a good book. I’ve read it and I recommend it. So, if you’re more on a, we have a pretty good cake already, and let’s just add more frosting type of a couple, then you’ll love this episode. We’ve officially sold out of the upcoming couples retreat for March, but please get on our waiting list for our next retreat next spring.
Meanwhile, you’ll want to check out our Get Your Marriage On program, which is essentially everything we teach at our in person retreats in an online format, and include private and group coaching to help you. put into practice what you learn. The details are on our website at getyourmarriageon.
com.
Dr. Kleinplatz, welcome to the Get Your Marriage On podcast. I’m excited to have you on today.
Dr. Kleinplatz: I’m excited that you invited me to be on today. Thank you so much for having me.
Dan: I’ve read your book, Magnificent Sex, and it is a fantastic book. And you talk a lot [00:04:00] about optimal sexual experiences.
And what I love about one thing, and I want, my first question for you is, in the world of psychology, we tend to focus on, dysfunction and things that aren’t quite working right and trying to bring it up to a baseline. But that wasn’t your primary area of interest in your research, is that right?
Dr. Kleinplatz: No, I don’t think it’s particularly useful.
the most common sexual problem that sex therapists world over deal with are problems related to sexual desire. You could label it low desire or high desire. The reality is, if you’re dealing with a couple, and I deal with couples, the reason that they’re in your office is because between them, There’s a sexual desire discrepancy.
Now, you can try all you want to focus on, getting them to compromise on frequency.
Or,
Dr. Kleinplatz: you could do what my research team [00:05:00] did, which is to focus on precisely the opposite. On optimal sexual experiences.
Of the
Dan: people we had the privilege to study who were having really wonderful sex, we wondered what lessons we could learn from them to apply to couples who are struggling to make their relationships last a lifetime.
Tell me, what was this experience like learning about what makes for optimal sexual experiences?
Dr. Kleinplatz: It was quite wondrous. I’m the director of the Optimal Sexual Experiences Research Team at the University of Ottawa, and, the interviews were all conducted by me with, my then graduate student, Dana Menard, now Dr.
Dana Menard at the University of Windsor. And she and I had the incredible privilege of interviewing individuals and people in relationships to discover what made sex memorable, wonderful, if you will, optimal for them. [00:06:00] Sex that, you know, We came to describe as magnificent from people who we came to call extraordinary lovers.
It was such a privilege to be able to hear people describe the most intimately erotic experiences of their lives and to tell us what made them so.
People from different socioeconomic backgrounds, academic backgrounds, men, women, people who had been in lifelong relationships, other people who were LGBTQ and other kinds of sexual minorities, but all the things at the most intimate moments looked virtually identical.
They all had the same kinds of characteristics.
Dan: What’s one or two stories from an interview that you did with someone that stands out to you?
Dr. Kleinplatz: Well, for example, we interviewed one couple in their 70s who were pretty retired. We [00:07:00] asked everyone we interviewed how frequently they had sex, and what proportion of the time when they were having sex was that sex really special.
Uh huh. And this one couple said that they used to have sex much more frequently, but now that they’re in their 70s, they only have sex once a week.
Uh huh. But that
Dr. Kleinplatz: one starts on Thursday when they each get home from school. Work, they only work three and a half days a week, and then when they get home for lunch around Thursday, they begin what they referred to as foreplay, which means cutting up a piece of cheese, meat,
Carrot sticks, celery sticks,
uh,
Dr. Kleinplatz: they said everybody knows with a certain level of experience that trying to have sex on a full meal is never a good idea, and so their foreplay consisted of preparing enough food [00:08:00] in bits and bites. all of it nutritious and healthy, so that they could then get into bed on Thursday night and not have to prepare meals or clean the kitchen and wash dishes again until they got out of bed on Monday morning to go back to work.
So they only had sex once a week, but it lasted for three and a half days.
Dan: That’s a great story. I love that. And I remember reading that in the book. That’s, that’s really good. Any other, any other good stories?
Dr. Kleinplatz: Well, one That we asked each participant about before we began the interview was about health status, ability versus disability status, and almost everybody identified as healthy and able bodied.
Uh huh.
Dr. Kleinplatz: And in the middle of one of the interviews, a gentleman, said, um, could you hold on for a second? I can’t breathe. And Dana and I are wondering, what do we do? Do we call 911? Is he [00:09:00] okay? Why can’t he breathe? He said he was healthy. And
he comes back on the phone, and we said, what happened? Are you okay? And he said, everything’s fine. I just need to get my oxygen. We said, oxygen? You said you were healthy. And he said, well, as long as I have my oxygen, I can breathe just fine. Well, why would you need your oxygen? And he said, well, I have a COPD, which is chronic obstructive pulmonary disease.
Uh huh.
Dr. Kleinplatz: And it’s ultimately fatal.
Uh huh. Uh huh.
Dr. Kleinplatz: This man had just identified as healthy and able bodied, and we said, obviously, I don’t understand. And he said, what’s the problem? All this means is that I have to find new ways of being sexual. And we said, but you have COPD. And he said, you know, if there is a disability that gets in the way of sexual fulfillment, it’s a disability among the able bodied of the imagination.
[00:10:00] There are always new ways for people who are willing to be creative.
Dan: That is such a good thing. So disability is of the imagination. Right. Those were his words. I love that. That is so good. Alright, so I want to get to the heart of it. What are the qualities that make sex worth having then?
Dr. Kleinplatz: Well, we found eight qualities, and we found a variety of facilitating factors, and we put them together. to create a new approach to psychotherapy, and more specifically to sex therapy for people with sexual desire discrepancies. But, if you’re asking what were the components themselves, the first one was about being thoroughly engaged, absorbed, focused, and embodied in the moment.
Uh huh.
Dr. Kleinplatz: Many people complain in therapy that,
They’re always being distracted by their to do lists, which tells, probably should take care of their to do lists before they try to engage in [00:11:00] sex. But it also tells me that the sexual contact itself is probably not particularly compelling. So these individuals, what we’ve call, come to call extraordinary lovers, were completely embodied in the moment, so that an atom bomb could fall and nothing would distract them.
Uh huh.
Dr. Kleinplatz: The second major component was being connected, aligned, in sync. During sexual activities. It’s not something that sex therapists typically write about, but it is something that songwriters and poets describe. It’s the two hearts become as one phenomenon. And Is
Dan: it like attunement?
Dr. Kleinplatz: Yes. Yes. Like interpersonal attunement.
Mm hmm.
Dr. Kleinplatz: And that doesn’t sound It’s not all that difficult by itself, but if you try to do that at the same time that you’re completely embodied within, it becomes an interesting [00:12:00] skill set. When you’re doing the two simultaneously, many people who read our work have said, Oh, that, that first one, that that’s about like mindfulness.
It’s like, well, wait a minute. Most people think of mindfulness as something they might do in a meditation group or in a yoga class where the focus is entirely within. Mm
hmm.
Dr. Kleinplatz: I think to accomplish that at the same time that you’re also In union with another human being is quite different from trying to do it when you’re only focused within.
Dan: Yes.
Dr. Kleinplatz: So those were our first two, but occurring simultaneously.
The
Dr. Kleinplatz: third one is about deep sexual and erotic intimacy. And very few people use the word love. Maybe because of the paucity of our English language where we say, Oh, I love chocolate chip ice cream, and I love a sunny day, and I love my puppy, and I love you.
No, they’re [00:13:00] different. So, here our participants were talking about deep mutual respect, deep caring. Liking one another, valuing the other’s pleasure as much as one’s own.
Uh huh.
Dr. Kleinplatz: And the fourth was deep empathic communication.
It was remarkable to listen to people who were so articulate.
And they were not just verbally articulate, but when interviewing individuals about touch and then interviewing their partners thereafter, it was clear that they were also extraordinary at communicating empathically via touch.
Dan: Ah, as in touch in and of itself is a powerful language, too.
Dr. Kleinplatz: Yes, and it’s a way of expressing to the other person, I am feeling you.
Dan: With my hands. I mean, in sex therapy, so often I hear patients complaining that my [00:14:00] partner touches me remotely.
The touch feels Unwrote. Yes. Wrote. Yes. Uh huh.
Dr. Kleinplatz: And that it’s routine. Whether my partner is touching my feet or my tired shoulders or my genitals, it’s as if my partner is polishing furniture, just going back and forth and back and forth and back and forth, but not really touching so as to feel me, to feel the person under the skin.
Right, there’s no heart
Dan: behind it.
Dr. Kleinplatz: That’s exactly right. There’s no heart behind it. With extraordinary lovers, you really feel them trying to penetrate you metaphorically, trying to know you via the act of touching and communicating with their touch. I’m here. I’m listening with my fingers. I’m trying to feel what you’re wishing for at this moment.
And [00:15:00] similarly, the people being touched were allowing themselves to be known nakedly. They were willing to share their bodies and their souls and allow themselves to be known through touch.
Dan: So this kind of empathic touch is different than like going to the doctor’s office, isn’t it? Where you’re about to be poked and prodded?
Dr. Kleinplatz: Yes. When you’re dreading touch, your whole body freezes.
It’s as if it turns into stone.
Uh huh.
Dr. Kleinplatz: Here, you’re allowing yourself to be known, body and soul, nakedly, willing to let your partner really get under your skin and come to penetrate you, metaphorically, to feel you via touch, and to allow yourself to be felt and known.
Dan: That’s great. What’s the fifth quality then?
Dr. Kleinplatz: The fifth is [00:16:00] about being able to be yourself, being genuine. Transparent. Emotionally naked, that’s hard enough for most people when they’re alone in a room, just staring at themselves in a mirror. But it leads into the sixth component, which is about allowing oneself to be known by another person authentically.
That is the act of being vulnerable, surrendering oneself in the act of erotic intimacy. That, in turn Leads to our seventh component, which is about risk taking, exploration.
my field in sexology, typically when we talk about risk taking, it’s how to prevent bad kinds of risks.
Right. The risks
Dr. Kleinplatz: of sexually transmitted infections.
the risks of Unwanted pregnancies and so on, but here we’re talking people who are knowingly choosing to hold hands together as they jump off cliffs together and use [00:17:00] erotic intimacy as a vehicle for personal growth and mutual discovery.
Dan: Yes,
Dr. Kleinplatz: good, good,
Dan: good. And
Dr. Kleinplatz: if you put all of those seven components together, That can lead to feelings of individual transcendence and relational transformation.
So people, regardless of their own particular religious backgrounds, would often say that it felt like a gift from God.
Dan: Yes, I’ve definitely felt that in my own marriage too, at times. There’s this deep sense of belonging, a transcendence is a good word, but it’s. there’s deep meanings involved in the entire, in the entire experience.
For sure.
Dr. Kleinplatz: That’s quite a blessing that you and your wife share.
Dan: Thank you. So how does all of this influence the kind of therapy you offer now and maybe even your background prior to it?
as served as a springboard for what you do now?
Dr. Kleinplatz: Well, I used to have a seven and a half month [00:18:00] waiting list, and I would often call couples after they’d been on my waiting list for six months and say, hey, I have an opening for you in only six weeks. And they would say, great, but we got divorced three months ago. Click.
Dan: Oh man, that’s heartbreaking.
Dr. Kleinplatz: Really was. And one of my objectives had been to help more couples more quickly.
Dan: Yes.
Dr. Kleinplatz: And so. It’s been delightful to use the research that we had done from 2005 to 2012, to begin in 2013 to ask the empirical question,
Is magnificent sex only for a blessed few, or can any old person have wonderful sex? Or, even more importantly, could any one young person have sex worth wanting? And could we use our research to help anyone enhance their sex lives? For a long time it was just a [00:19:00] question, but we now have the answer, and we’ve used that answer to Help develop and evaluate the effectiveness of the therapy approach that our team is now using and we’re calling that optimizing sexual experiences couples group therapy by Creating a group therapy model.
We’re able to help more couples more quickly more economically And I was able to get rid of my waiting list. That’s great.
Dan: So,
Dr. Kleinplatz: if a couple calls me today, I don’t have to tell them, you know, wait six months. I can tell them, I can meet with you right away and see if you would be a good fit for group therapy.
Mm hmm. In the group therapy, we are giving them. An image of what wonderful sex looks like, and pointing out that sometimes when people feel low desire, it’s evidence of good judgment.
Dan: Right.
Dr. Kleinplatz: There’s a lot of sex out there that’s not terribly intimate, or [00:20:00] fulfilling, or meaningful. Right. It’s rather bland, lackluster, and routine.
Dan: Or feels like a job. They feel pressured to do it. Or they operate more out of fear, like, if I don’t do this for him or for her, then, you know, there’ll be bad consequences, so I, I better perform. That’s not sex worth wanting.
Dr. Kleinplatz: No, that’s sex that comes out of obligation.
Dan: Right.
Dr. Kleinplatz: And usually the partner senses that.
It’s like, what am I doing in bed with this person who doesn’t even seem to be engaged with me?
Mm hmm.
Dr. Kleinplatz: And we need help. And now we can help more people more quickly. So, we learned a great deal about what optimal sexual experiences look like. But we also asked participants along the way, you know, what did you do to get there?
Were you born lucky? Did this happen the first time you had sex?
And
Dr. Kleinplatz: without exception, all of our participants laughed in our faces and said, No, this was something that required [00:21:00] considerable effort, devotion, and intentionality.
Dan: Yes, and I, I think that’s what, maybe the media or magazines kind of get wrong.
It’s like you do these five moves and all of a sudden you’ll have great sex, but it’s not like that. There’s effort involved. There’s anything of value in life requires effort and sex is no different.
Dr. Kleinplatz: Precisely, and the media often turns it into, I think of as a tips and tricks mentality.
Dan: Yes.
Dr. Kleinplatz: Even add in a couple of other toys, and techniques.
Uh huh, uh huh. And it’s not about things that you can do or buy, it’s about ways of being together. And it’s certainly not about trying to reach some other, standard that’s externally imposed. Rather, it’s about looking within and trying to be as honest as possible. Transparent, as willing as you can be to share yourself nakedly with [00:22:00] another person, both metaphorically and also literally.
Dan: That is so good. There’s a quote by Albert Einstein that I love, and it goes something along the lines of, You can’t solve the problems at the level of understanding in which the problem was created. And it’s implying, We need to raise our level of intelligence in order to solve whatever problem we’re having today.
So, let’s say a couple’s having, you know, issues with, you know, sexual desire discrepancy in their, in their marriage. I think what you’re trying to teach is you can’t solve the problem with that current level of tools or what got them there. isn’t going to get them out of it. Is this what you see then in your therapy practice?
How you help people kind of raise their level of awareness and their mentality and their intelligence around things?
Dr. Kleinplatz: I love that quote that you mentioned. I, I agree completely. You need a completely different level. And so as we asked individuals and [00:23:00] couples, you know, Where did you start? They all said we had to start by unlearning everything we’d ever learned about sex, all the myths and the stereotypes.
We had to relinquish those and jettison them in order to start from scratch in coming to know oneself authentically and to know one’s partner intimately, and it’s at that level that we start to see what will work for these two people.
Dan: This is so good. This has been a great interview.
What would you recommend for couples where, let’s say one person is really interested in improving sexual intimacy in their marriage, but the other person just hasn’t, through their behavior, shown any interest in improving things?
Dr. Kleinplatz: Well, I think that’s a fairly common cause for relationships ending, and what I would say to both of them is don’t give up hope. There is help available. Certainly, we’re now training people all over the world, In offering, optimizing sexual experiences, [00:24:00] couples group therapy. I know many couples are nervous about participating in a group, but The therapist trained in this approach will never ask you personal questions, let alone about your sex life during therapy.
some people refer to this approach as, classes or a training program rather than, what they think of as group therapy. But by all means, go online to OptimalSexualExperiences. com And click on directory to see if there’s a therapist near you who is available to help you and your partner find ways of reconnecting as sexual beings and enhancing your sex life so as to create sex worth wanting.
Don’t give up.
Dan: I love that. That is so good. Well Kleinplatz. I have appreciated your wisdom and how your passion for this is blessing so many, many people. Thank you.
Dr. Kleinplatz: Thank you so much. I [00:25:00] appreciate your giving me the opportunity to talk about something that makes such a difference in people’s lives.
Dan: Thank you for listening to this episode, please share it along with our apps and timidly us. And just between us with their married friends. I promise they will thank you for life. If you want a more meaningful sexual and intimate connection in your marriage, I invite you to check out my, get your marriage on program.
Over a hundred couples have said this program packs tremendous value and has helped their intimacy grow to the next level. Now go get your marriage on.
