Let’s be honest. Sexual fantasy is a weird part of being human.
In this episode with my guest and fellow Get Your Marriage On coach, Amy Langford, we tackle real listener questions about sexual fantasy in marriage — the kind that stir up curiosity, shame, arousal, and everything in between. What does it mean when you’re turned on by something that goes against your values? What if your spouse says they don’t have any fantasies? Is it wrong to mentally engage with fiction or past experiences during sex?
We talk about meanings in fantasies, how you can talk about them, and how you can use them for the good of your marriage.
Whether you’re feeling confused, conflicted, or just curious, this episode is for you.
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If you’d like some more support in your marriage, and would like some coaching from mysef, Amy or our other coaches, check out our program.
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Transcript
This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors or inaccuracies. For the most accurate and complete experience, we recommend listening to the full podcast episode.
Episode 244
Q&A Sexual Fantasies
Amy: [00:00:00] often fantasy is a pathway into our deepest vulnerabilities and desires, they’re presented in such an imaginary or coded or a new way that.
That we have to, see them a little differently.
Let’s be honest. Sexual fantasy is a weird part of being human. The weirdness of our sexuality makes it hard to share it with others, even our own spouse with whom we have no problem sharing other weird things such as a toilet or silly TV shows or. Let’s be honest, even farts, [00:01:00] but I’ve been fascinated how couples navigate the topic of sharing sexual fantasies.
Dan (2): Some couples, frankly, do this better than others, so I look forward to sharing some principles that I’ve learned along the way with you. And I’m joined by Amy Langford, who is my colleague in the coaching program. Hello, Amy.
Amy (2): Hello. Nice to be here with you, Dan.
Dan: Amy is a frequent guest on Get Your Marriage On, and I’m so grateful that she’s back here.
She’s a very, very gifted couples coach. She helps couples overcome intimacy struggles in their marriage and fantasy is one of her areas of expertise. So Amy, I’m honored that you’re here and we gotta have this fun and rather juicy conversation today.
Amy: Thank you, Dan. I’m actually excited to have this because there was a version of me not so many years ago that this topic would have completely. shut me down and I literally had no, bearings or, identity in
Dan: Wow. That’s great. So you’re like a living [00:02:00] testament of the growth, the sexual development and growth that we are capable of and, can grow into. And I think that’s why I love talking to you so much, Amy, is you’re really sincere and it’s not like you’re just head knowledge. It’s, it’s like, uh, you walk the walk, you, you know it, you’ve experienced it, and that’s what makes you such an effective and compassionate coach.
Amy: Thank you, Dan.
Dan (2): And today we get to talk about fantasies. Amy, before we get any further, can you tell me what is a fantasy? Let’s define it.
Amy (2): Yes, absolutely. And I love this definition. It’s based on what Esther Perel teaches and she teaches that fantasy is any mental activity that generates desire and intensifies enthusiasm.
Dan (2): I like that
Amy (2): think about, I like it too,
Dan (2): Uhhuh.
Amy (2): different ways this can happen, right? Whether it’s sights, sounds, smells, touches, memories, meanings, times of day words. All the different contexts play freedom. Anything [00:03:00] that intensifies desire and enthusiasm.
Dan (2): That’s good. I remember reading in Barry McCarthy’s book, he’s a, , popular sex researcher and therapist in the research we’re really aroused by only one of three ways, or a combination of three ways, but they really fall into one of three categories. First is physical stimulation.
That makes sense, right? Touch this part, and then we kind of become aroused. The second is relationship oriented. This is where I feel loved by you. I feel chosen, I feel very grateful for you. And those relationship meanings evoke some arousal. And the third is psychological arousal. And that’s this fantasy component.
And it’s not that one is any better or worse than others. It’s not that one is holier than others.
Amy (2): Nope.
Dan (2): in practice, we.
Amy (2): here.
Dan (2): No, no. And in practice we use all three or maybe a blend of three and, but today for this episode, we’re gonna focus on category three fantasies, which can be [00:04:00] kind of scary for some people, I guess,
Amy (2): yes, because What makes fantasy so amazing is. It allows us to take familiar things and create mystery around them, or take ordinary things and have them become extraordinary or to take a very familiar partner and find new ways to interact with them.
And so it’s such an open, imaginative, creative, new space that people sometimes are a little bit alarmed by what their imagination conjuress up.
Dan (2): I like that because you’re waking up to the next person every morning for years. But in fantasy, it could be a new person, like it’s seeing your same spouse through fresh eyes, and that could add this like infuse the marriage with this newness, this novelty that it craves.
Amy (2): That’s really what fantasy is a lot about. It presents a problem and a solution, right? We like newness, um, eroticism and arousal and desire, like [00:05:00] new ways of engaging. They like freedom. They like to have, you know, openness and so fantasy presents a way to be with the same person for years and years and years and years and years, and enjoy them in an abundance of beautiful ways.
Dan (2): I like that. I like how you said, about the freedom. Can we double click on that for a little bit? Can we zoom in a little more on freedom?
Amy (2): Sure. Go
Dan (2): There’s, there’s an aspect of sexuality that really thrives. I. On freedom
Amy (2): Mm-hmm.
Dan (2): so in some ways, and it’s a horrible joke, but I’ve seen t-shirts and other things like that say that too.
It’s like now that you’re married, they equate it to prison almost like as in there’s no more freedom now that you’re married.
Amy (2): Mm-hmm.
Dan (2): some people view it that way as a very cynical approach, I think, to marriage.
But, then again, there’s a little bit of truth to this because you’ve. You’re basically committing to monogamy, you’re committing to oneness, closeness at the exclusion of everything else. Yet our [00:06:00] sexuality thrives on freedom. So how do you reconcile those two
Amy (2): So you have the familiarity of the person you love and that has been chosen, and you have the trust that’s been established
Dan (2): Uhhuh?
Amy (2): And then you allow the fantasy to create the extraordinary out of the ordinary because there’s no limits to our imagination. There’s no limits to our creative capacity, and the ability to create desire and enthusiasm are mind. And can be creative.
Dan (2): Yes.
Amy (2): can have what’s familiar and, trust that person. And you can also go anywhere with them in fantasy
Dan (2): speaking of.
Amy (2): consent.
Dan (2): Right, right. Yep. We’re doing this all above board for sure. But
Amy (2): Yes.
Dan (2): So I’m wondering, Amy, what are some common themes that fantasies fall into, or maybe categories. And these can be, you know, people are drawn to certain storylines in movies or stories, for a particular reason.
’cause they resonate with [00:07:00] our, with, with our eroticism. What are some of those common themes? Uhhuh.
Amy (2): A lot of the themes are really kind of polarizing, meaning you like the surrender and the captive. You like the experienced and the inexperienced. You like the forbidden or the taboo. Like, we shouldn’t be here, we shouldn’t be doing this, or, I don’t know, you, or this, like, like the one night stand type idea or what if someone finds us?
Dan (2): Mm-hmm.
Amy (2): lot of those types of themes are really, popular. theme that’s really popular is to be the center of attention, almost like
Dan (2): Yes.
Amy (2): Um, and I, I don’t mean that in a sacrilegious way,
Dan (2): Uhhuh Uhhuh.
Amy (2): but to have all of the gaze and the attention and focus on you. Um, and this is often the person who in their daily life, wants none of that.
And that’s, that’s part of where fantasies, Allow us to expand because in our day-to-day life, we may be someone who wants [00:08:00] nothing to do with a spotlight or attention or being known, in the bedroom with the fantasy, you can take on this whole other persona. Um, same with someone who really likes to be in control and have a plan and, you know, always be on top of things
Dan (2): Right.
Amy (2): in the bedroom.
They may completely switch and want to be in a complete position of surrender and overtaken or something like that. And it allows us to explore all of these sides of ourselves and some that even sometimes collide with how we like to view ourselves in our daily life.
Dan (2): I wonder if some people think if fantasies are good or bad. and I like to take the stance that they’re not inherently good or bad. They’re, they’re neutral, but it’s what you do with them. In other words, do you let your fantasy control you and, and it’s consuming? Or are you in charge? Are you in control of your fantasy?
So I think it is maybe dangerous when we. Overly obsessed about a fantasy or it takes [00:09:00] on too much power or control in our life and it runs our life. That’s not a healthy way to live. But also the opposite end of the pendulum swing is where we squash every fantasy. ’cause we can’t tolerate it.
We can’t even,
Amy (2): It’s too distressing.
Dan (2): Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That’s not a healthy way to live either. There’s some sweet spot in the middle where we allow fantasy because we use it to build us. And so we’re the chooser, we’re the arbiter of it,
Amy (2): Yes.
Dan (2): of that.
Amy (2): that’s the important part, understanding that you’re the chooser, you ultimately do have. Control over your imagination and what parts you choose to embrace and develop and. You also do this in context with your spouse, right? Like this isn’t just a solo activity and
Dan (2): Right, right.
Amy (2): that, that are very enticing and increased enthusiasm for you may not for them.
And so you’re like, well, it’s fine as a fantasy, but in the context of this relationship, it’s not gonna produce much fruit. So it’s not that it’s [00:10:00] bad or shameful, but let’s find more collaborative space. And so, I think. could be good or bad with fantasy? is, if it’s used to control or shame or, used as some type of manipulation or in a way that that doesn’t respect both partners.
Dan (2): That’s true. You can also use fantasy that will create more distance or as a way to escape the marriage. Some people could be fantasizing about someone else, maybe specifically. Or something that basically is a way to escape from the demands that the relationship offers and or requires. And that’s probably a misuse of fantasy.
If your goal is to stay married long term, that is
Amy (2): Right. I do see sometimes the fantasy becomes more important than the spouse, than the
Dan (2): yes.
Amy (2): live and with them. And again, while there’s nothing wrong most, you know, for the most part with fantasies, if [00:11:00] having to have that fantasy becomes more important than loving the person that’s actually next to you, obviously that’s problematic.
Dan (2): Right. There’s also a category of fantasies that just should live in the fantasy world alone. Nothing to be enacted in real life. And there are some fantasies that are fantasies. We as humans, we want what we can’t have.
Amy (2): Mm-hmm.
Dan (2): If you have it, then you don’t need it or want it anymore. So there’s gonna be a large category of fantasies that might fall into the area of, these are things I don’t have or can’t have because of the situation I’m in, or the, the person I’m married to, or ’cause of some agreements or commitments or vows that I’ve made.
But in the fantasy world, it allows you to kind of have things because you, we always want what we can’t have.
Amy (2): It also allows you to have freedom of choice, right? Remember, most fantasies don’t, you don’t actually want them in reality. That’s what’s [00:12:00] so different about a fantasy. They really do stay in your imagination, and they’re used in your imagination to create the mystery, the desire to transcend a reality maybe that you live in now, not that there’s anything wrong with that reality. This is not a lack of, this is just that life and energy. And so that’s why a lot of times the forbidden and taboo so enticing in reality because it indicates that capacity to choose. you actually could choose that in real life, you wouldn’t.
Dan (2): Right. Right. Oh, well this is gonna be a good episode. As we get into questions in just a moment, and these are questions that our readers have and listeners podcast listeners have sent in, I look forward to digging into those with you and I, just get the sense that the sharing a fantasy with a spouse.
Can feel very intimate, right?
Amy (2): I think it’s actually one of our most intimate places because you can’t [00:13:00] hide, right? Like a fantasy exposes the most vulnerable. Parts of you and parts sometimes we don’t even understand,
Dan (2): Yeah.
Amy (2): of you wanna play or themes or context or meanings or stories or, you know, so many minds, do get revealed in fantasy.
Dan (2): You might be completely comfortable naked with your spouse, like physically undressed, but letting you into my mind and what I think about, oh, like,
Amy (2): erotic mind. Yep.
Dan (2): well that’s, that’s way more intimate sometimes
Amy (2): whole
Dan (2): Uhhuh.
Amy (2): ball game.
Dan (2): I got an email from someone that asked, is it okay for Christians to maybe say some swear words while they’re making love to each other?
I’m not gonna make a judgment, I’m not gonna answer that directly, but it does remind me how when we step into this fantasy space with our spouse, it’s almost like an altered state of mind. It’s like,
Amy (2): Mm-hmm.
Dan (2): who we are, you know, in the light of day, dressed up outside the bedroom is.
One way, but we get to experience each other in [00:14:00] a, it’s like a new dimension, this new place when we’re highly aroused in another area that can take on different rules, different meanings, because it’s like, uh, it was Esther Pro, uh, who said, sex isn’t really so much of a thing you do, but it’s a place you go.
And I love that concept. Yes, we’re stepping into a place where we can set kind of different rules, things that kind of excite us, things that. We may never say certain words outside of this very context, but in this context, they, they become fuel. They become very arousing in that moment.
Amy (2): Just like when you read a fantasy novel, right?
Dan (2): Uhhuh,
Amy (2): you to a different world, a different place, a different cast of characters, and by reading it, it doesn’t mean that you actually wanna go to that world,
Dan (2): no.
Amy (2): are you enjoying themes and stories and plot lines and tension that’s created by this unique place and unique world and unique dynamics?
Yeah.
Dan (2): That seems like a
Amy (2): can do with our minds, right?
Dan (2): and with our spouse, and that [00:15:00] sounds really exciting.
Amy (2): Yes. And it’s a great place to be able to play with the person you love
Dan (2): Mm-hmm.
Amy (2): about the most.
Dan (2): Great.
BEGIN HERE
Dan: So the format today is gonna be a little different than our standard episodes. This is q and a. we’ve invited our listeners to send us questions, and we’ve got lots of questions. Many of them are so good. We’re not gonna go through ’em all. But these questions. Then, you know, some of these are really vulnerable questions.
We’ll keep the person that ask the question anonymous, I’ll read the question and we’ll have a conversation about each one, and then we’ll get through those. How does that sound?
Amy: Sounds fabulous.
Dan: Great. So let’s jump right in. Our first question has to do with a fear of having sexual fantasies, uh, fearing our own sexual fantasies. This is what a husband wrote in to say. He said, I’m ashamed of my sexual past and fantasies. There are things I have never told a soul about and things about my sexual desires and fantasies that I am ashamed of.
[00:16:00] If someone, especially my wife, were to know that I thought or experienced certain things, I don’t think she could ever love me again. I have trouble even loving myself when I think of these things too. Yet on the other hand, these sexual desires seem so real to me. Thinking about them arouses me, so I’m ashamed that I am aroused by these thoughts or fantasies.
As a result, I tend to clamp down my sexual thoughts and stay far away from anything related to these ideas out of fear that it might arouse me. I work hard to keep up a persona that I am above all of this, but sometimes I just feel depressed and exhausted when I succumb. What am I to do?
Amy: I have
Dan: Ooh,
Amy: of compassion for this gentleman. I feel like I have coached so many clients in this same space, and
Dan: Uhhuh.
Amy: I just want to extend compassion. towards him because it is a conflict that many people experience around fantasy,
Dan: Yes.
Amy: and it is [00:17:00] representing that tension between this is what I would do in my daily life, and this is where my mind psychologically goes to find that erotic tension of arousal.
Dan: Right, right. And kind of fearing our sexual fantasies or like, really, I’m turned on by that idea.
Amy: Mm-hmm.
Dan: That’s Not uncommon.
Amy: Not
Dan: That’s, that’s, that’s a normal part of being human. It’s, it’s kind of weird.
Amy: There are a lot of, um, themes or context or situations and circumstances in fantasy. Um, that you have to realize are different than what you would actually want or choose in your daily life, or some people would say in the light of day or outside of your bedroom. that’s because they’re inherently representing play
Dan: Uh huh.
Amy: the ability to move into a different space where there’s more contrast, where there’s different meanings, where there’s different themes.[00:18:00]
The contrast of those actually create the erotic tension and arousal, and it’s very normal for people to like, is that really me? Like, how do I, navigate the difference between who I am, like say in my day-to-day life and what comes to my mind in sexual fantasy?
Dan: Can you give me an example maybe from a woman’s perspective of what this might look like?
Amy: Yes, I can give you a lot of examples. So from a woman’s perspective, I was coaching a woman once, and her and her husband had been through some diff difficult challenges in their
Dan: Mm-hmm.
Amy: One of them being that, there was a period of time where he was involved with prostitutes,
Dan: Uh huh.
Amy: very painful and hurtful, and, they had healed from that and had worked through it.
But she was very confused by the idea, [00:19:00] in their bedroom that the idea of being a prostitute was so arousing to her.
Dan: Right Uhhuh.
Amy: The conflict in that. Like why would I want that when it was something that was so hurtful to me?
Dan: Right
Amy: Or why, what would be desirable in that? Like, I don’t want to be an object. I don’t want to be used.
I don’t want my husband to use me. Why would I find this particular fantasy so arousing,
Dan: Uhhuh.
Amy: that can be the conflict that comes up,
but one of the things I want to say is. What fantasy can often do is present a problem and a solution.
Dan: All right. Like what’s the problem and the solution.
in that situation.
Amy: So the problem is obviously feeling unchosen or feeling threatened by prostitution. And in a fantasy you create a setting and a scene where the threat is neutralized where the problem is no longer problematic. In fact, it’s not problematic, it’s arousing.
Dan: [00:20:00] Uhhuh, Uhhuh,
Amy: it brings pleasure instead of pain.
Dan: Uhhuh,
Amy: I, over and over I find this with different, men and women in different settings, which I think we’ll talk about later. So I won’t spill all the beans on that,
Dan: Uhhuh.
Amy: that often fantasy is a pathway into our deepest vulnerabilities and desires, they’re presented in such an imaginary or coded or a new way that.
That we have to, see them a little differently.
Dan: I see. All Right?
Gotcha. There’s also things called, the technical term is paraphilias. These are like in the bell curve of human experience. These are things on the fringes of what you would say is sexually arousing, you know, in the bell curve, in the middle. Just the things that are, we’d say very common that people would say yes at sexually arousing, but then people experience things that are kind of a few standards of deviation away from the center.
Amy: Mm-hmm.
Dan: And we’re [00:21:00] ashamed by that ’cause it doesn’t fit what the normal is. Some people use a kind word like kink to describe these things, but I think it’d be understandable if someone who has some of these more, these paraphilias
Amy: Mm-hmm.
Dan: to feel ashamed of that ’cause they don’t fit in the norm and how they came to be, what happened, whether it’s something from childhood or just something you’re just normal proclivity towards certain things.
That’s hard to understand, I think. But just maybe a little bit more self-acceptance in this case. Yeah, I do get turned on by this idea
Amy: Mm-hmm.
Dan: and just let it be neutral. I like that.
Amy: Let it be more neutral, or sometimes even just allow that. That in the sexual and the fantasy world, the fantasies that may come to your mind aren’t anything that you would actually desire. And
Dan: Yeah. I.
Amy: playing with different contexts and themes and meanings, and that [00:22:00] can sometimes open things up.
have a lot to talk about in fantasy, but there are so many fantasies that I hear from people that they find troublesome until they understand. More of their meaning. They, they worry that they are somehow immoral or sinful
Dan: or a deviant. and they don’t wanna be seen that way. Right.
Amy: And that’s
Dan: They stuff and hide that
Amy: yeah.
Dan: them.
Amy: a vulnerable place to share with your spouse because you do fear their rejection or their judgment
Dan: Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I do get emails often from listeners that will say things like, I have this, uh, just one example might be, I really have this like, fantasy of my wife, excuse me, for using this language, but this is the language that I’m thinking of that they’d write. Like, this is a husband saying, I really have this fantasy.
My wife sucking me off and then kissing me and putting that semen back in my mouth. [00:23:00] Is that gross? Like, they’re emailing me, I think part of it is like I have this fantasy. I don’t know if it’s good or bad. Like they wanna assign a moral judgment
Amy: Yes.
Dan: and they’re trying to reach out to someone else.
They trust me. I’m
Amy: is
Dan: grateful that they trust me. right. Can you, is this, what does this Tell me about me Am I weird for this is this something like that? And I’m not gonna say to that man, Yeah.
you’re weird. Like, what? You’re crazy to think that. ’cause that’s not, The case that’s not real.
But also I think there’s a little bit of a shame of having certain fantasies and like, ‘ cause maybe they’re okay emailing a stranger like me about it, but telling his wife, oh, like heck no. That’s really difficult to do. And so you’re probably looking for some support in, asking if this is okay or not okay.
Amy: And even thinking of a problem and a solution, often fantasy lives close to the line of disgust
Dan: Yes it does.
Amy: and
Dan: [00:24:00] Why is that
Amy: it. They’re close to each other in the brain, and so
Dan: right?
Amy: in the state of arousal, something that may normally, you may find disgusting when you’re not in that context of
Dan: Uhhuh?
Amy: they actually be very arousing.
Dan: Yes. I’ve experienced that a lot in my own fantasies.
Amy: Yes. And so just knowing that that arousal can change a disgust response, and even after coming out of arousal, you may be like, why did I want that?
Dan: Uh,
Amy: that’s the erotic tension of the fantasy,
Dan: got it.
Amy: so that
Dan: Great.
Amy: that would be disgusting is now no longer, right, that there’s freedom in there. There’s no disgust that.
That in the, when you shared, often men share that they want to feel fully accepted
Dan: Mm-hmm.
Amy: what that could look like, right? They’ve created a fantasy of what? Full acceptance, take the most disgusting, weird part of you, and yet put it in a storyline or a [00:25:00] context that equals full acceptance.
Dan: Yes.
Amy: That’s what a fantasy like that might be about.
I
Dan: Right.
Amy: to be fully known and fully accepted that even something that. your un aroused state, you may find disgusting is actually wholeheartedly received.
Dan: I love what you just said. I had Dr. Steven Snyder on my podcast, and he talked about this idea that when it comes to sex, it’s his belief that we all are trying to get back to what it was like. He used the idea as the infant, um, on our mother’s breast, just fully loved every little wrinkle, every little, you know, fat roll, every
Amy: Not only loved, but fed, nourished,
Dan: yes,
Amy: accepted a, you know, attuned to like every cry was answered.
Dan: yes.
Amy: Yeah.
Dan: We kind of wanna get back to that. And sex as an adult is like for many of us, is a [00:26:00] pathway towards that Or what kind of what we seek. We may not have the words for that, but that’s like the feeling, the emotion that we’re after. And I can see how what you just said about this specific fantasy, about taking the most disgusting thing I can think of, part of me, but making it neutral or even accept or celebrated
Amy: Or
Dan: is this.
Amy: pleasure, right? Disgust and pleasure. You’ve
Dan: Yeah.
Amy: disgust to pleasure.
Dan: Right. It’s that going back to this original thing that we’re seeking for that wholeness, that union with ourselves and where everything’s okay.
Amy: Yeah.
Dan: really good.
Amy: Yeah. And I think one of the difficult parts about fantasy is often we are so uncomfortable in our own fantasies that when you bring ’em to a spouse, you want them to accept them in order for you to accept them.
Dan: Yeah. Talk more on that. That’s so true. Uhhuh.
Amy: Because you are bringing this very exposed, vulnerable, weird, unexplainable, sometimes side, it’s [00:27:00] as if your spouse says, wow, that’s amazing. I would love that. That that’s the highest level of acceptance. And what I often have to encourage clients is it’s got to come from you
Dan: You have to accept yourself. first. You can’t rely on your spouse to accept you
Amy: Yeah.
And
Dan: every little part of you.
Amy: right, and that this fantasy represents acceptance. And it doesn’t actually have to be acted out in that way.
Dan: Mm-hmm.
Amy: fantasies are never, some are, you know, there’s a wide spectrum of fantasies. We probably should start there. But there is a wide spectrum of what fantasy is.
there are a lot of fantasies that don’t have to be acted out, in this scripted way, but just that context and meaning of full acceptance, that’s what’s actually being sought.
Dan: Yeah.
I like that. Can we talk about, we are alluding to it a little bit more, I just wanna dive just a little bit deeper before we move on. This idea of wanting our spouse to [00:28:00] validate our sexual fantasies all the time.
Amy: Mm-hmm.
Dan: And usually I see this with the higher desire or spouse, the person who thinks more novelty is better for their marriage, they’re the ones with more creative ideas what to do in the bedroom.
And they’re with a spouse that doesn’t agree at the same level, at least with all of their creative ideas.
Amy: Mm-hmm.
Dan: And, but they expect their spouse to, you know, go along with it all the time. And, then what are some of the problems that happen when you set up the marriage in that way?
Amy: There are a lot of problems. Let me see if I can remember all of them. One of the first ones being as often the, the more spontaneous or the spouse with the fantasy is viewing themselves as better than or more developed in their sexuality
Dan: Yes.
Amy: when their fantasies can actually be suggesting the exact opposite.
They
Dan: Uhhuh.
Amy: be about seeking that validation and about their own insecurities. [00:29:00] What their fantasies might actually be exposing is their sexual insecurity, and they just happen to have a lot of it.
Dan: Mm-hmm.
Amy: So having or not having fantasies isn’t a sign of sexual development.
Dan: Mm-hmm. Right.
Amy: And so that’s one of the first places we start.
And the fact that. So often the spontaneous or one with more fantasies is labeling this particular style as a fantasy.
Dan: Uhhuh?
Amy: And fantasies can range anything from feeling cared for, cherished, adored, chosen to and ideas and role plays. And like you said, specific.
Dan: acts behaviors. Mm-hmm.
Amy: There is a broad range of fantasy.
Some people just want to feel fully teased or fully,
Dan: Dominated
Amy: and someone
Dan: Uhhuh.
Amy: be dominated, right? Like there’s such [00:30:00] a broad spectrum that if you are assuming a fantasy has to look like a script, then you might also be missing out on partner’s or your spouse’s desire. Uh. Type of fantasy.
Dan: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That’s good. That’s good. Alright, next question.
Amy: Okay.
Dan: This comes from a husband that says his wife does not have any fantasies. He says, I’m a published author, so writing creatively comes easy to me. I’ve written a number of erotic stories for my wife and I starring us, which she always enjoys.
But basically all that stems from my own sexuality. And when I try to get ideas or input from her, she quickly shuts down and says, I have no fantasies. I know that’s not true, but clearly there’s something there that is a block for her. We’ve been married nearly 28 years, so I have a good grasp on a lot of the known of my wife’s sexuality, and I’m [00:31:00] able to write her in a way that resonates with her.
But what I don’t have is a good grasp on her unknown. So he is, I think he’s saying I wanna get to know the more hidden parts of her so I can write those into my fantasies. Which leads me to this. We have a great and very regular sex life generally, but my wife definitely falls into the category of being content with what we have and seems to be fine with doing the same things all the time.
That’s a little harder for me as I’m the creative entrepreneurial one, so it seems like I’m the one forever pushing for some variety there.
What are your thoughts, Amy, about this, question?
Amy: First, I have a lot of empathy for her because I literally didn’t have any fantasies, and I want to speak to anyone who doesn’t have that experience with fantasy. There can be a lot of reasons for that. Um, one can be a marriage that is set up in a duty or [00:32:00] servicing frame, and in that framework, sexual activity is work.
Dan: Yes.
Amy: when sex is work, there isn’t room for the play of fantasy. The imagination, the creativity, the other context, the meanings. And so it may not be her fault. She, she may not yet be in a freeing enough space to have. Fantasies. If there is any of that type of duty work, it’s my job to, you know, solve your arousal type framing.
Dan: Mm-hmm.
Amy: of the first things that blocks it. a second might be that again, she has a different type of fantasy and in their marriage fantasy is defined as having a creatively written script
Dan: Yes.
Amy: that is how he has found his way to fantasy.
Dan: Uhhuh.
Amy: might be more of a feeling,
Dan: Mm-hmm.
Amy: it might be more of, I wanna feel cherished, I wanna feel worshiped, I wanna feel [00:33:00] desired.
I want to hear, your explicitly erotic stories. And that is actually my fantasy. I want to be the one where all of your attention goes.
Dan: Uh huh.
Amy: can look so different that what may be her fantasy is actually being dismissed.
Dan: Yes. Yes.
Amy: Or it may be that she is actually participating in giving him these clues and he’s just like, there must be something more. And
Dan: And is fishing for something in where there is nothing, right?
Amy: like that is the fantasy. Like why does there have to be more.
Dan: Yeah. Uhhuh. Yeah. Yeah.
Amy: So my advice to both of them
Dan: Uhhuh,
Amy: to take what’s already working.
Dan: Uhhuh,
Amy: that they have these stories. Maybe actually be talking about the context or themes in those and develop those between them more like in a collaborative way instead of him just writing them out.
Dan: that [00:34:00] would be good. And it, it could just be that it’s undeveloped right? Or underdeveloped for her. Uh, just taking that argument for a moment. ’cause like what you said, I mean, it takes effort and time and practice to cultivate the skill of articulating a sexual fantasy. Obviously it’s a skill that comes very easily and naturally to him.
I don’t think he should assume it comes naturally and easily for her, but if she wants to, wants to get to that point, then I I think, uh, a little more patience, a little more room would be fine there.
Amy: I also think this is sometimes about timing.
Dan: Yeah.
Amy: more because a lot of women are responsive desire.
Dan: Yes,
Amy: a responsive desire. woman, is not going to be in sexual desire until she’s in arousing context for a while,
Dan: yes.
Amy: And so if you ask this [00:35:00] question outside of. The actual moment where sexual desire has now been present, you’ve been aroused for a while, and the sexual desire has come on board.
If you ask it outside of that context, they may not actually have access to it.
Dan: Hmm. Good point. It.
Amy: So sometimes it is a timing thing too, like wait until the whole engine’s warmed up and all of those places in the body and mind are firing and then explore.
Dan: That’d be good. I also am latching onto the, end part of his questions. He’s, he says in his question it’s, it’s a little harder for him to accept that his wife doesn’t have fantasies because he’s the more creative entrepreneurial one, and it seems like he says, it seems like I’m the one forever pushing for some variety there.
And it, I, it just makes me wonder if, if you’re the one pushing for the variety in the marriage, there’s probably a little bit of [00:36:00] danger in the relationship when you have the mentality that you’ve got it all put together, you’re the creative one. You’re the one with, you know, the gift for writing and now you’ve asked your spouse for her ideas, like, how is she gonna compete with you on that?
It’s, it’s not, it, it doesn’t feel like a welcome and safe place for her to step in and to fully share, especially if her ideas of a fantasy don’t live up to his expectations of what he is hoping to hear from her. So it kind of makes the marriage kind of break into a hierarchy, right? He’s the superior one.
He’s the one that’s got it figured out. He’s the one that’s pushing for variety. She’s the one that’s okay with, the same thing over and over as if there’s something wrong with that. And so, no matter how hard she tries, he is always gonna be a step ahead. And that’s not a fun meaning to step into. It’s not a free feeling to step into in the marriage.
Amy: not very sexy or
Dan: I.
Amy: or collaborative.
Dan: Definitely. No, no. [00:37:00] So I think this couple can work together better, perhaps. Of course, I’m reading into a lot of these things just on the paragraphs they wrote. But perhaps if they could work together on over time practicing where any fantasy she has, regardless if it is on the same spectrum as his right
Amy: Mm-hmm.
Dan: just as fine and acceptable in their marriage and equally valid as his own.
I think it’ll give her a little more confidence to express whatever fantasy she might have, even if they’re on a very different axis on the graph, you know, metaphorically speaking than his.
Amy: Mm. I do think it is sometimes more difficult for responsive women or just for women in general, to feel the permission to have fantasies. I.
Dan: Okay. Yeah.
Amy: Good women aren’t highly sexual
Dan: or so we’re told. right? Uhhuh?
Amy: I’m
Dan: Yes.
Amy: as a statement of
Dan: Yeah. Yep. Uhhuh. [00:38:00]
Amy: is a messaging. You can be a good wife, you can be a good mom.
You can serve on all of the school committees and volunteer for everything, and no one really portrays strong woman who’s okay in herself, who’s devoted to her marriage and her children as also being highly sexual. And having that permission to want or to desire or to have fantasies. And so just the lack of even, models or discussions or portrayals of this can be challenging for women to recognize.
My sexuality is an integral part of me. I have an imagination, I have a mind, I have desires. What are those leading me to in this realm?
Dan: That’s good. That’s good. Love that. And you’re a good role model, Amy, for all. this. So everyone look to Amy if you want, if you need a role model, good, [00:39:00] great, great. And you weren’t always that way, which makes your story. That’s great.
Amy: Not
Dan: for those of you that don’t know Amy very well, go back and listen to episode. I think it’s 101. You were, this is, you’ve been a guest on my podcast many times, but this is your story. It’s a very inspiring story.
Amy: I share it with many people, so it’s not that there’s anything special about me, there isn’t. I think it’s just recognizing what’s available. To you as a woman that I didn’t recognize was available and being able to have that offered and shared with me, then I want to share that and offer it to others.
You
Dan: Great.
Amy: very, very moral, virtuous woman and have sexual fantasies.
Dan: All right. The next question I think is a fantastic question. A lot of people have this one, it’s talking about [00:40:00] fantasies.
with your spouse, which is really hard to do. We can talk about why that’s hard to do in a moment, but this person is asking, do you have any tricks or tips for us? A way to ease into talking about fantasies if we’re not used to doing it.
This is what he says. I have wondered about sexual fantasies and what might be an easy on-ramp for couples who would like to explore this, but in a way that is safe for both spouses. So what framework or boundaries would be worth putting into place, and what sort of things might it be good to discuss before diving into this?
Amy: Great question. First I want to say, I don’t know if there is an easy on ramp,
Dan: I’m glad you said that. Uhhuh? Uhhuh.
Amy: let’s just state that. I think this is just generally uncomfortable and very exposing and kind of anxiety inducing. It is parts of us that. we don’t show to anyone hopefully except our spouse. And we don’t talk about in the general [00:41:00] population or in general discussions, and there’s good reasons for that.
And so it is going to be probably awkward,
Dan: Yes.
Amy: I think just acknowledging that and knowing that that doesn’t mean it’s gone wrong or you might feel wildly uncomfortable opening up the topic. That makes
Dan: Yeah. Mm-hmm. and I think there’s this inverse correlation of intimacy and anxiety. What I mean by that is the more intimate things become, the more your anxiety spikes, right? if you keep your marriage at kind of arms length,
Amy: Surface
Dan: gonna have Yeah. Low intimacy,
Amy: Very
Dan: anxiety.
Amy: Yes. Not high revealing or high exposure.
Dan: Right?
Amy: that limits the anxiety.
Dan: Right, right. And anxiety, I don’t mean like clinical anxiety per se, but it’s just a general discomfort [00:42:00] of being that close to someone. And I think the couples that do it really well, it’s not that they’ve learned how to not be anxious. They just learn how to handle their anxiety better. They’re more capable of, tolerating that higher level of anxiety and staying in it longer.
It’s like stepping into the fire and not getting burned, but you’re gonna stay in it just a little longer, kind of a feel.
Amy: and I think what makes this conversation more possible is first, if the other parts of your relationship. Well established, meaning
Dan: Yes.
Amy: good trust, there’s good confidentiality,
Dan: Mm-hmm.
Amy: partnership, there is, um, a
Dan: Friendship?
Amy: there’s
Dan: Yes.
Amy: and companionship, and that there’s already an established intimacy that is preferred by both.
Meaning that if you are in like a, a duty framework or servicing framework, or you’re having fights over intimacy all the time.
Dan: [00:43:00] Uhhuh.
Amy: not a good time to bring up a fantasy. You’ve got some other things to work out
Dan: Right.
Amy: first. Um, if you are working through betrayal or some other, you know, deeply troubling relational thing, it’s probably not the time to bring up fantasies.
So, and I, I think the other thing is if, let’s say you do have good intimacy in general, you have a good partnership, you have a good relationship, there’s high amounts of trust already. Then if you’re going to enter into this conversation, it has to be in the framing of this is not a to-do list or
Dan: Right.
Amy: that I’m bringing to you that now you have to produce.
Dan: It’s an exploration. That’s what it is. Yeah. Yeah. Because if there’s any edge of, okay, now that I said I have this fantasy, you have to do it. Whether or not it was intended that way, but the receiver of that fantasy might. By upbringing think, [00:44:00] oh, I need to do everything he or she wants to make him or her happy.
It’s not gonna be helpful either. So just understand this is neutral. This is just an exploration
Amy: An exploration, and I think even having the freedom to understand. Some of the meanings of fantasy,
Dan: yeah.
Amy: again, wanting to be seen, wanting to be known, having, uh, an imaginative context that allows you to explore your deepest vulnerabilities.
Dan: Yeah.
Amy: what fantasies often represent. And so if you have that context first, then you can explore the meanings of those.
And it doesn’t have to be the specific act or the specific position or the specific role play. You can have a lot more collaboration in those meanings.
Dan: I love it. That’s great. Which leads us to the next question, which is related. Uh, this person says, my spouse disrespects me when I share a fantasy. This person writes, [00:45:00] how do you go about either feeling awkward, telling your partner your fantasy, or telling them that you’re wanting a complete to completely changing it or turning it, saying you only want that ’cause for example, you just want other guys to hit on you or feeling awkward in what they say is theirs, even though they’re trying to only not fail or not do it to their expectations.
I don’t know if that was really clear, but I think the idea is. What do you do when you share a fantasy and it’s not received the way you want to?
Amy: or I think the meaning is misinterpreted.
Dan: Yeah.
Amy: I think that’s the helpful part of understanding yourself First,
Dan: Yes.
Amy: let’s imagine this person is sharing, it sounds like maybe let’s, Ima, let’s make her female. I don’t
Dan: Okay.
Amy: if this is male or female, but let’s make this a female and she has a fantasy of being hit on,
Dan: by other men, Uhhuh,
Amy: in front of her spouse.
if you are [00:46:00] believing that fantasies represent what you want in reality,
Dan: Uhhuh,
Amy: would be a very threatening thing to share.
Dan: right?
Amy: you are understanding that fantasies often represent a deeper vulnerability,
Dan: Mm-hmm.
Amy: that gets neutralized, like jealousy, wanting to be a lot of women fantasize about, Being captive or controlled or, or overtaken.
Dan: Yes.
Amy: nothing about that fantasy that they want in real life.
Dan: Right?
Amy: Right. There’s nothing that a lot of couples want about their fantasies when they actually share them with me. What they represent is a vulnerability, and so it may be to her that having another man hit on her is one of the biggest threats to her.
She feels that would jeopardize their relationship the most.
Dan: Yes.
Amy: And she has then created a fantasy around that because in fantasies you’re always safe.
Dan: You’re always in control.
Amy: you’re always in control. No
Dan: Yep.
Amy: harmed
Dan: Mm-hmm.
Amy: [00:47:00] pain becomes pleasure or, uh, fear becomes, you know, arousing.
Dan: Yes.
Amy: And so you take some area where you feel extremely vulnerable.
Or maybe it’s an insecurity that she doesn’t actually know if she’s worth wanting. And so this other gentleman represents her being wanted in the face of her husband.
Dan: Right.
Amy: actually wants someone else to hit on her. It’s exposing her own vulnerability and uncertainty about her desirability.
Dan: So if you’re the spouse on the listening side, you know, receiving this fantasy, if you’re the husband in this story, instead of immediately jumping into what you want, who is it? Who’s the guy that you want hitting on you?
Amy: Right.
Dan: Who, who do I need? Right. That’s
Amy: What? I’m
Dan: than that.
Amy: you that you need someone else.
Dan: Right, right.
Amy: Yeah.
Dan: No wonder. So next time, is she gonna share fantasy with [00:48:00] him?
No.
Amy: Mm-hmm.
Dan: No, we gotta remember fantasies are just that. They’re fantasies. Can we keep it, the discussion or the understanding, the maturity in that realm? I think it would help both couples, you know, explore their sexuality And make more meaningful connections together.
Amy: And there are cases where one spouse shares a fantasy and the other can even acknowledge like, okay, I, I see that meaning for you. I see why that’s enticing. You know, I I, but I just can’t join you in that. That’s also fair, right? Like that just not a space or a place that I can go with you, and that’s okay that that person has that fantasy and that they then work on collaborating in another area.
Just because you have a fantasy doesn’t mean that that relationship has to enact that, or it has to become a part of your sexual script. It is just one of the many possibilities
Dan: That’s great. [00:49:00] Next question from a wife. She says, I have a fantasy that turns me on from a TV show that I watched. Is that okay? She writes, what first really flipped the switch for me in our sex life was coming across a TV show with a storyline that showed a lot of high meaning, very positive, uh, meaning in relationships, but also very sexually explicit.
I used to have trouble getting in the mood for sex. Now, I.
find that just contemplating that story and those meanings puts me in the mood right away. It’s also where my mind goes a lot during sex. I like imagining myself living out the identity and meaning that belongs to the woman in the story, and imagining my husband doing the same as being the man.
But is this a form of breaking contact with my partner if my mind is always going there? How can you maintain or increase or avoid losing partner engagement if you find that you need to or really like to engage mentally with a story or fantasy during [00:50:00] sex? Just to be clear, I don’t think it’s an issue of partner replacement.
I’m not imagining myself with another person. I’m imagining the woman in the story being with a man in the story, and I just find it really energizing to think about these couples and their dynamics. But I still wonder whether it’s an issue of partner disconnection.
Amy: I would say this is a perfect example of psychological fantasy and arousal that is very healthy
Dan: Yes,
Amy: often. Come across those meanings and contexts in literature, in our culture, in life experiences. And she happened to come across this in a TV show.
Dan: Uhhuh.
Amy: Um, this is one of the rare TV shows, where the woman in the show is actually portrayed as a very intelligent, capable woman.
And. Also very in touch with her sexuality. And so it does have a lot of rich context and meaning. And I do actually tell a lot of women that I coach, to check out [00:51:00] stories, to check out storylines and context because there’s sometimes so much richness and depth there to grasp onto
Dan: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Amy: that you can bring in to enhance your own.
your own understanding, your own psychological arousal. It’s very normal to have, an arousing context that is helpful. Absolutely. And it’s not partner disconnection, it’s just part of bringing your mind along with your heart and your body.
Dan: And I would also say, look to the fruit like a bad tree. Can’t bring forth good fruit. A good tree can’t bring forth bad fruit. Like what is the result of employing this fantasy in your sexual interaction with your husband? Is it strengthening your overall bond? Is it bringing you closer together
Amy: Mm-hmm.
Dan: is it inviting disconnection?
And you know what, if it’s moving you further away from your goals, I think that would be a, [00:52:00] a telltale sign if this is helpful or harmful for your marriage.
Amy: and I actually do know this person who submitted this question,
Dan: Uhhuh,
Amy: to know more of the story and more of the stories that they have struggled so much to find.
Dan: yes.
Amy: A sexual connection
Dan: Mm-hmm.
Amy: to find her own sexuality and her own eroticism, and this really helped develop that in her, which is common.
It’s so common for women to have shunned the psychological development of sexuality and eroticism.
Dan: Right. We categorically think it’s all wrong or evil beneath them or something.
Amy: Yes, And so this is part of her opening up part of her development. And I also happen to know that their intimacy has gotten much more meaningful
Dan: Mm-hmm.
Amy: uh, collaborative and rich. So
Dan: That’s great.
Amy: not partner dis displacement or disconnection.
Dan: No, and let, if we’re [00:53:00] gonna be like, look at It from this angle. Any fantasy about any storyline. In one way or another, you’re inviting your spouse to kind of be a standin or a proxy for it. Like even in the most vanilla missionary position, like type of a way of engaging sexually. There’s some sort of, a little bit of a, a proxy going into the sexual encounter, and it’s not harmful.
It’s, it’s just the way things go. That’s the way we do things and
Amy: of bringing some erotic tension. What
Dan: yes.
Amy: is she’s taking these roles, which were very well portrayed in the show, and very much a masculine and feminine,
Dan: Mm-hmm.
Amy: their healthy senses. I. Allowing her and her husband to move into these, into this storyline, into this context to create that, and I think it’s a very healthy example.
Dan: Okay, great.
Okay, this next one’s spicy. It’s.
about a threesome and I got a [00:54:00] lot of questions about fantasies regarding threesomes or inviting other people into the bedroom. This is what this man said. My wife and I had been married for 19 years and are in our late thirties. We have a great relationship.
We love being together, and we have very frequent sex. We are pretty high desire and enjoy lots of sex. We are also Christians and very active in our church, and sincerely do want to follow Jesus Christ. In the last year, I found out that my wife, throughout our marriage almost always needs to fantasize to get to orgasm, which is interesting to note.
That’s, that’s fine. I guess in addition, she also told me she has frequently fantasized about another man having sex with her. While she was orgasming, instead of being angry or upset, it actually excited me. I told her that I’m okay if she tells me when it happens and what she imagines. Fast forward six months and we have been having very hot sessions and things have been very steamy.
We both enjoyed it [00:55:00] tremendously, but it’s come to the point where we often talk about our fantasies of threesomes or her doing sexual things with other men in the form of foreplay. We have even read some erotica together and along those lines to excite ourselves before sex. Neither one of us want to do anything like that in real life, and I don’t think the danger is that we might try it.
We believe wholeheartedly that sex is only between us and we are very satisfied with each other, but we certainly have enjoyed fantasizing about it. At some time, we are starting to wonder if this is healthy for our marriage and if we are really confused as to what. This is living against our values.
Although we would never do these things outside of a marriage, is it okay to use it in our fantasies? So that’s the essence of the question. And, uh, we’ve hit on some of these points already, but let’s talk about it. Amy,
Amy: Yes,
Dan: what do you think
Amy: actually get a lot of questions about threesomes and people find it very troublesome. [00:56:00] Because they like this couple, have no desire to actually invite someone from the outside in. They have no desire to be intimate with anyone but their spouse. And so the, context of a third person or a threesome in a fantasy can be extremely troubling and they wonder if they’re immoral or if something’s wrong with them, and that’s very normal.
But I also
Dan: yet? It’s a compelling fantasy. It’s sexually exciting, right? In the yes.
Amy: Again,
Dan: that?
Amy: you reconcile often the meanings of this, and again, if you look at the meaning of a third person or a threesome, it is inviting in what would be a threat.
Dan: Yes,
Amy: third person would threaten a relationship. It would be competition. It would be someone that could take your most dearly beloved away, or all of a sudden you might be compared to them, or you may be less than or more than or, or something.
There, there could be jealousy, right?
Dan: yes. [00:57:00] Uhhuh.
Amy: The, the addition of a third isn’t actually usually about bringing a third person in. It’s about playing with the tension The threat is neutralized.
Dan: Uhhuh,
Amy: no jealousy. In fact, there’s pleasure and arousal. And so what again you’re doing is bringing in that threat and in the context in your mind, and that’s what is really important to understand about fantasies.
Fantasies are scripts you can play out in your mind, but you. actually want them in real life. And what they’re doing is creating that tension that allows for arousal. And I often find even that couples that accept this part of themselves more, it actually reduces desire to be sinful in any sexual way outside of marriage.
It actually that away, like it has a place to go.
Dan: Right. as a, it is like a neutralizing agent in a way. Uhhuh
Amy: Like this is that safe
Dan: it. Tames it. Uhhuh?
Amy: containment and [00:58:00] contain it, and it does take away temptations.
Dan: Mm-hmm.
Amy: I don’t know.
Dan: Uhhuh, Uhhuh.
Amy: have to ask God why, why fantasies were created this way, but it allows us to step into forbidden, but do it in a way where we have choice.
It allows us to take things that would be the most threatening, and again, they become arousing. I think what’s clear with this couple, and what would have to be clear in any type of fantasy like this is that there’s actually no desire to enact this,
Dan: bring a third person in
Amy: it.
Dan: Uhhuh.
Amy: That this is a script that creates the forbiddenness, that creates the tension that allows both people’s psychologically to move into a different erotic space, and that’s what they’re playing in.
They’re playing in the tension of that, that imaginative, erotic space.
Dan: And this discussion reminds me of another third person fantasy that I hear a lot of. And that’s the husband, wanting to see his wife with another man[00:59:00]
Amy: Mm-hmm.
Dan: and they freak out about it. Yeah. Oh yeah, exactly.
Amy: Mm-hmm.
Dan: that idea of like sharing their spouse, like in the light of day, that would be very difficult.
But when you think about the meanings, I think in marriages, especially when it comes to a sexual relationship between husband and wife, it’s so legal, it’s so defacto, it’s so assumed that, well, of course I’m gonna have sex with you. Who else am I gonna have sex with? But in the fantasy world, the idea that other people find this woman just as compelling, just as attractive, and I don’t own her
Amy: I was gonna
Dan: that
Amy: don’t own them.
Dan: And I don’t own her.
Amy: in it, right.
Dan: Yes.
Amy: Now you’re in a free meaning. You’re in a choice meeting. Like it’s
Dan: Right,
Amy: to or I should. It’s like, wow, she’s
Dan: right,
Amy: that others want her.
Dan: right. Also a little bit, a little further on that is, and she is free to have sex with whoever she wants. She can have sex with other [01:00:00] men too. And yet the reality is she still chooses me back.
Amy: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Dan: there’s this, it’s, I think that’s why that particular fantasy, or one possible explanation why that particular fantasy is so appealing to a lot of men, husbands, but
Amy: Right,
Dan: distressing at the same time.
Like, why do I really think this?
Amy: It steps into the forbidden and the taboo, which always illustrate choice and freedom.
Dan: Mm-hmm.
Amy: have to have freedom to. Even pretend in taboo. Right.
Dan: Mm-hmm.
Amy: neutralizes most threatening thing in a relationship, which would be a third person,
Dan: right?
Amy: the jealousy, the competition.
And so it actually opened up freedom in so many ways. Mm-hmm.
Dan: It. So there’s an underlying message behind this question that we think I think we should address now, and it’s this ideas. As Christians, we do believe in monogamy. We do believe that, um, that’s really [01:01:00] important. But would fantasizing about these things be, I don’t know, a sin be somehow unsavory? Like before God will we be condemned for, even in our fantasies thinking about a third person, I think there’s this underlying like, am I doing something wrong in God’s eyes with this, and I maybe we’re a little, as coaches, we’re a little beyond the bounds of our expertise and explaining that, but I think it’s worth talking, at least from a coaching perspective, what your thoughts and my thoughts are about.
Employing fantasies that don’t necessarily line up with, black and white biblical teachings like this. They don’t fit neatly into the gospel narrative.
Amy: They really don’t, and yet they do.
Dan: Yes. Uhhuh.
Amy: So you aren’t actually letting go of your morality. You are using themes and context and plots to [01:02:00] actually bring you closer to your husband. You’re using themes that help you step into your body. the fruit of this, as you said, is actually looking at what this is creating in your marriage.
Dan: Yeah.
Amy: The depth that this safety and vulnerability and collaboration brings is so powerful.
Dan: Mm-hmm.
Amy: I can’t, however, say, for every person what kind of fantasy would be considered moral or immoral. There are
Dan: Right.
Amy: many nuances in there. I do believe that’s an individual decision for you. And for your marriage and may have to do with your individual experiences if there’s any trauma involved.
And
Dan: Right.
Amy: like a lot of other factors in there. I think we always want the, tell me, this is moral. Tell me
Dan: Yeah. Gimme the black and white Uhhuh.
Amy: me the black and white list. What’s okay, what’s not okay? And I
Dan: [01:03:00] Yep.
Amy: like. Like you could have missionary sex and it could be so violating and you could do one of these wild fantasies and it could be the exact opposite.
And so
Dan: It’d be sanctifying. Yeah.
Amy: sanctifying. Exactly.
Dan: this is my personal belief that God doesn’t operate in blacks and whites with every single thing. He leaves a lot up to us to figure out ourselves and to bring to him for what’s right for us. Uh, for some things, not for all things, but for many things because without it, we wouldn’t grow and develop if everything is handed to us and told like, we have a manual, this is the way to do it and not to do it.
And that was it. Without any room for. Variation without any room for flexibility. We be robots and God doesn’t want robots. He wants children that can grow to become more like him, is my belief. So, uh, what is totally okay for one couple may not be [01:04:00] totally okay for a different couple and they’ll be held accountable differently because you gotta take into account so much variation in, in proclivities, in personality, like what you said, so much family of origin culture.
There’s so much variation there. So for this dear couple at that’s gonna be a question, you can struggle with yourself in your own marriage and bring it to God yourselves. But we’re not gonna sit here and say, here’s a list of things that are okay and not okay. Beyond the general framework we’ve already been given.
Amy: Thank you for listening. This concludes our q and a episode on sexual fantasies. I hope you’ve enjoyed it. I hope it’s given you a lot of things to think about and, helps you spark the conversation in your own marriage, in your own fantasies with you and your spouse. Now if you have more questions about fantasies and how they relate to building a healthy sexual relationship in your marriage, you’re free to check out our private Facebook group.
There’s a link to it in the show notes, and you can also get [01:05:00] to it from, our Facebook page, get Your Marriage On. In addition, I wanna invite you to get some marriage coaching or marriage counseling for myself or Amy and our entire Get Your Marriage On Team. We have a fantastic program for married couples and individuals.
That are really designed to help you move the needle in a positive direction in your marriage. Our coaching is expert and we really invest heavily into our client success. You’ll find out all these details and our website, get your marriage on.com/program. I will catch you next week and have a great weekend.
