Welcome to Part 2 of my conversation with Tanya Hale!
We talk about the pressure men feel around performance, why their penis can be such a vulnerable topic, and how couples can build a sexual relationship that’s validating fun and deeply connecting, especially as bodies and marriages evolve over time.
(If you missed part 1, we explored how men express love through sex, why emotional connection and sexual desire are so intertwined for them, and how reframing men’s sexuality can help us show up more equally in intimate relationships in the second half.)
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Transcript
This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors or inaccuracies. For the most accurate and complete experience, we recommend listening to the full podcast episode.
Episode 248
Dan: [00:00:00] Welcome back to part two of my conversation with Tanya Hill. In the first half, we explored how men express love through sex, why emotional connection and sexual desire are so intertwined for them, and how reframing men’s sexuality can help us show up more equally in intimate relationships in the second half.
We talk about the pressure men feel around performance, why their penis can be such a vulnerable topic, and how couples can build a sexual relationship that’s validating fun and deeply connecting, especially as bodies and marriages evolve over time. Let’s dive in.
Dan: So men express love and communication through sex.
Yes, yes. Like I would’ve told you in my previous marriage that that was just a lie.
So he doesn’t love me, he just wants the orgasm. I, I really would have, and I really believe
Tanya: that, and I uhhuh and I look back and I think, well, why, why did I feel that way? I. What do you, so I don’t know, can you, from [00:01:00] working with your clients, what can you help me see about that?
There might be
Dan: some truth to what you believed, and I’m not calling you crazy at all for a lot of men, because sex is kind of important to them. It’s their way of emotionally connecting. They then treat it like a need in that they find enormous amount of validation through sex. So when we look outside of us to fill something within us, it will never be enough.
Mm-hmm. And this can be through like work the workaholism, right. It could be through a, you know, working on your appearances, like how others perceive me is how I gain value. You know, we do all these things to gain validation outside of validation seeking in order to fill us, you know what I’m talking about?
Mm-hmm.
Dan: Well, men do this through sex too, so. I feel good about me when we’re having good sex. When my wife is pursuing me back, then I feel good about [00:02:00] myself. And if that’s your source of your validation, of your sense of yourself, remember it’s outside of you, it’s not very stable.
Mm-hmm.
Dan: So a lot of men when, because they’re not stable in that way ’cause they can’t stand on their own two feet, they’re not self-reliant on their own, validation of themselves and they’re.
Their validation seeking through sex. Then they’ll do things like controlling behavior. I’ve seen like even Christian men spout scripture at their wives about it’s her duty to give him. Sex when he wants it, or we’ll use, here’s a book for you to read. Here’s a podcast for you to listen to. Or, I did the dishes for you.
Can’t you just gimme 10 minutes? Like a transactional nature. All of these are symptoms of them. Having sexual, validation seeking behavior, and so, it’s a weakness. Yeah. It’s not a strength in that case. Okay.
Tanya: So if I can just interject something. So back in [00:03:00] December I did a, a seven part series on sense of self, and I love David Arch’s work where he talks about the sense of self, like.
I like, we like we pump it up with a balloon, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm. You, I know that you’re familiar with this one. Yes. And I have to be responsible for pumping up my own sense of self. Yes. And what you’re describing here is, is a man who is struggling with sense of self and so he’s looking for his wife to pump up through sex, the balloon, through sex, through different sexual behaviors and, and all of that kind of stuff.
And so. As we’ve, I, I just think everything comes back to a strong sense of self, right? As we Exactly. As we have that strong sense of self, both men and women. I think men no longer do those kinds of behaviors you’re talking about, but I think women are also more capable of stepping into their sexuality when they have a strong sense of self.
Dan: Absolutely. Yeah. They can
Tanya: own it more. And I think, I think a lot of women, we’ve [00:04:00] been trained and conditioned not to own our sexuality, but to allow other people to determine our sexuality by how desirable we are or how, you know, those types of things. And so rather than, than stepping into our own sexual sense of self,
Dan: right?
Yes, absolutely. So in the scenario you just described, of course, I don’t know your ex-husband but this is a pattern that I see. Men tend to look for sex to get a sense of self in it. And, and that’s, I don’t think is healthy ’cause it’s not sustainable, it’s at another person’s expense. Right. And it doesn’t help, uh, contribute to a, a sexual relationship where both people wanna participate in.
Right? Where now she has to give him sex in order for him to calm down. So now she’s using sex as a way to kind of manage his emotions. To keep him from being too moody to keep him from straying or wandering or, you know, being angry or [00:05:00] upset. Yeah. So she’s like, oh, it’s been three days. Ugh. All right. Time to do my duty again so I can Get him off my back for three days. And when your relationship turns into something like that, it’s not something I think both people want to participate in.
Tanya: Yeah. Yeah. Men too. Right. Absolutely. And not just women, like men don’t want obligatory sex either. No,
Dan: because it, it, it’s, uh, you feel very condescended to as a man when the wife gives you sex because it’s out of obligation for you.
It’s like, yeah, you need this here, have it, have my body, but you’re not gonna have my heart in it. Yeah. It feels very demeaning, to be given obligatory sex.
Mm-hmm.
Dan: Again, this ties into sex is not just a physical release for man. If that was it, that would be enough.
But it’s not, it’s very much very emotionally tied, this relational piece. And so even though you’re physically close, your body’s tucked in each other, yet your hearts are so far [00:06:00] apart. men experience that very acutely in that sexual relationship.
Tanya: Yeah. A lot of sense of self work to be done, to really be able to meet an equal ground in the sexual arena.
Correct.
Dan: Right.
Tanya: Yeah. Okay. So much good stuff. What else do women need to understand about men in order to really see them, uh, as whole complete partners? I mean, what’s gonna help us be able to accept them more?
Dan: So you look at journal accounts of men describing their peak sexual experiences.
Mm-hmm. And compared that to women’s journal accounts of their peak sexual experiences. And you read the accounts of men nine times outta 10, their peak sexual experiences. They’re describing what the woman is doing. The sexual act, meaning
Tanya: how? How she’s responding, meaning her pleasure,
Dan: her pleasure, her joy, her ecstasy, and that he got to be a participant in that.
Tanya: Hmm. You said nine times outta 10.
Dan: [00:07:00] Nine times outta 10.
Tanya: Wow. Okay. That’s, so
Dan: for men, their greatest sexual experiences or peak, the ones that they remember the most, is less about how intense their own orgasm was. It’s about how intense her orgasm was and that he got to be a part of it.
Mm.
Dan: Men more than women are very do oriented.
Women are very be oriented. For example, my wife steps outta the shower and I see her. I am turned on. My body agrees this, she’s beautiful. Like that’s a great idea. I step outta the shower and she sees me. She doesn’t respond the same way. Well, it gives, and I’m, I’m a pretty good looking guy. I’m pretty fit right.
However. The other day I’m in the kitchen. We had a drawer in the kitchen cabinet that had was broken. I went to the hardware store, I bought the tools and I’m repairing it. My wife walk walks past me in the kitchen and later on she tells me, seeing you on your knees, like with the [00:08:00] drill and like taking that apart and fixing it.
She’s like, I felt so turned on. That moment. And I’m like,
Tanya: I get that. ’cause just last week Si was mowing the lawn and I was upstairs and I looked out in the backyard, my climb out there raking stuff and edging and trimming. And I was like, Ugh, man, that guy is sexy. Right. Like uhhuh.
Dan: Yeah. Right. And for us guys in the middle of that, like, huh, that was sexy to you.
Uh, there’s nothing sexual about that. Like Right. Like, okay, but
Tanya: that, that explains a lot. Right. When men are doing. Women find that very sexy, which may be why a lot of women are, are, you know, if we, if we go back to the traditional love languages, which I, I know, get a lot of up and downs right. With that uhhuh,
but,
Tanya: but a lot of women are like acts of service, like him doing things.
Mm-hmm. Helps to create that arousal where for a man, it’s. It’s a lot of times physical touch or whatever. Right. That physical touch. Right. I’m always amazed how many men are like, Nope. It’s [00:09:00] physical touch for me. Right. Like Uhhuh. Yeah. Yeah.
Dan: Right. this is a joke, but if they’d made pornography for women, it wouldn’t feature men in the nude.
It’d feature men like helping with the baby or vacuuming the floor. Right. Cleaning the house. I’ve seen, I’ve seen Instagram posts on that’s jokes, right? Like women
Tanya: porn and the men are in their scrubbing the toilet. Right? Uhhuh.
Dan: And they, and it’d be even better if it was like a man with high status doing.
Some menial work because it knows it matters to her. Mm-hmm. Like that would be the ultimate female porn that he would, you know, overcome societal norms just to do something that matters to her. And it’s always in the orientation of doing so. This is important to understand. Men general are very doing oriented and women are very b oriented.
Like a woman doesn’t need to like mow the lawn or, I don’t know. Nurse a child, in order for a man to find her attractive, all she needs to do is [00:10:00] be relaxed and maybe naked. You know, that’s, and maybe naked
Tanya: would help. Yeah.
Dan: All she needs to do is breathe, right? Yeah. I guess is what I’m trying to say. And then find that arousing.
And so it’s kind of not fair in that it’s not equal in that area. Mm-hmm. But because of this doing nature, it interferes sometimes with sex, because you talk a lot about men. Become very performance oriented in sex. It’s very much about doing for them. Am I doing you, did you like that? Am I touching you the right way?
How is my technique? They’re a lot more concerned about technique than women are in sex. Hmm. Because they’re very much fixated on her pleasure, her experience in the sexual experience. And, sometimes that’s good. Sometimes that’s bad. It’s good in the sense that generally speaking, women are the ones caring for other people.
Like I think about my wife, we’re in midlife, we have kids at home all day. From the moment she [00:11:00] wakes up to the moment her head hits the pillow, she is taking care of other people all day. And to have a husband who’s willing to do her, where she can just not care about someone else for a minute. Mm-hmm.
And just be served. I. in a very erotic, in a very pleasurable, very like, fundamental way is a huge turn on for my wife. So that’s doing, has its place, is what I guess I’m trying to say. Mm-hmm. Where she doesn’t have to do, she just has to be and be done to, is a very erotic turn on for a lot of women in that, in that case,
Tanya: yeah.
Dan: And a lot of women’s fantasies are around this idea of just. They don’t have to do it. They just are, they just be because women are doing so much already. Yeah. So much of the load falls on them. But the doing gets in the way for a lot of men. Uh, they feel like if they’re not doing it right, I.
It’s like going to the job site without your [00:12:00] tools. It’s very embarrassing. So, there was a time in my own marriage years ago where I was so fixated on my wife’s pleasure if she’s gonna have an orgasm in a sexual encounter or not, that it, it became kind of my focus in sex and she could feel it, and she felt like a project, which was not a turn on to her at all.
It was a turnoff. Like, and I was always like. It was always about analysis, post-game analysis. How was this for you? Did I do this right? Or if the littlest thing like distracted her or went south, in the sexual act, I’d be really upset at myself. Like, Ugh, we ruined it again. We ruined a good opportunity and we didn’t get the outcome we wanted.
And this interferes with men’s sexuality. So understanding where its strengths and its limits are, I think would be helpful for women. And just understand men are really do oriented when it comes to sex
Tanya: and not just the do you [00:13:00] part. Right. But uh, just performance based, right? Like,
Dan: yeah.
Tanya: Yeah.
Dan: Right. Okay. I think that’s good.
Some men who learn how that sex isn’t just about doing. It’s about being and enjoying each other. It just takes an enormous amount of that pressure off. And couples enjoy much better sexual experiences when it’s not about an outcome or reaching some sort of a goal, but it’s that they’ve really thoroughly enjoyed each other in this fun erotic way together.
That’s life-giving to both of them. That’s when things get really good.
Yeah.
Dan: Can we talk about penises in relation to this? Absolutely. Let’s do it. Alright. So I think a lot of women listening to what I’m about to say, their eyes are gonna roll, but we
Tanya: what? But what do we need to understand? What do men want us to understand about their penises?
Dan: Men love their own penis. They think their penis is fantastic and they want it to be [00:14:00] adored. They want it be loved. They want it to be. You know, cared for. And a lot of this comes down to the doing nature of men. It’s like, it’s in their mind, it’s their main tool that they bring to the job site, so to speak.
And let’s be honest, penises are weird, are kind of, they’re all in different shapes and sizes and, and whatever. And for a lot of men, they feel really vulnerable about their own penis. They always wonder, uh, like, is this sufficient? Is this doing its job? And, you can have a very self-confident man, strong, you know, leadership oriented.
But when he thinks about his sexuality and his physicality, usually his most vulnerable place is his own penis. Hmm. And I, women don’t have a penis, so they probably don’t orient this way even from young ages, boys. They can’t help but touch their penis. They’re touching their penis all the time when they use the bathroom.
It’s very much a part of kind of [00:15:00] who they are. It’s like a symbol for a lot of men, they associate it as a symbol of their masculinity.
Hmm.
Dan: So when a penis is disparaged told it’s ugly or not, treated in that way, a lot of men kind of take that personally, meaning they, their sexuality isn’t sufficient or they’re not enough.
Tanya: So, so when a woman is grossed out by a penis or doesn’t wanna touch it or mm-hmm. Engage with it in any way sexually, that actually hits a man very much to the core of his being, of who he is.
Dan: It can be, and there might be good reasons why a woman has disgusted over a penis. It could be past abuse or the way things are talked about in their home growing up.
Or it could just be that some women are just a lot more sensitive to their disgust response in their brain for all sorts of things. But that being said, how we. Yeah. I was
Tanya: gonna say for me, in my previous marriage, it was a very [00:16:00] self-righteous, I’m more spiritual because I’m not interested in the.
In
Dan: your penis.
Tanya: Yeah. In, in all the sexuality piece. Right, right. Uhhuh. And I thought that that made me more righteous and more spiritual and, and obviously the more that I’ve, I’ve figured out the last few years, I’m like, oh gosh, like spirituality and sexuality really go hand in hand. They’re not on opposite ends of the spectrum when you really gotta meet them in the middle, but mm-hmm.
But, so for me it was, it was a self-righteous thing. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. But, but realizing that, that this is a really sensitive, vulnerable space for man, and, and if I don’t create a safe space for his penis to exist in our relationship, it’s, it’s almost like a rejection of him is what you’re saying. If I understand correctly.
Dan: Yes. Again, we wanna be good, strong men are self validating. They’re not outside validating, of course, like what we talked about. Yeah. but. I think when women better understand how much a man’s penis means to [00:17:00] him, if it means a lot to the man, I think it, it goes, a very long way in that sexual relationship.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Tanya: Well, and I, I did a podcast some time ago called, Why validation is necessary in relationships or something around that, because our own self validation is super important. But in the relationship we do need validation to, yes, say, I love you, I see you, I appreciate you, uh, you are important in this relationship space to me.
And it sounds like that’s what you’re saying is that. That not being demeaning or dismissive or disparaging toward yes, penis is a way that we can validate him in the relationship In saying. I accept you. I love you. I embrace you. You are important to me.
Dan: Yes. Now, the flip side is also important because generally speaking, as men age, they experience more erectile unpredictability, meaning [00:18:00] they want to have an erection, but their body just isn’t functioning that day or that time.
And as you age that increases. and some men are so sensitive to their own penises functioning as a symbol of their own masculinity and their own sexuality that they will, like. We’re talking about men in their fifties and sixties and beyond, create sexless marriages. It’s because he doesn’t want to face the embarrassment of his penis not functioning.
Hmm.
Dan: So being overly tied to your sense of self with your penis is functioning, isn’t healthy either. So if, if you’re a woman in a marriage where that is the case, reassuring him that his sexuality has little in his attractiveness, has little to do with how well his body part is functioning or not. ’cause it’s just a fact of life as you age.
It doesn’t function as well. And you’re not gonna fight against nature here, [00:19:00] but, our relationship goes so much deeper and our sexuality is so much deeper than how your body responds in a certain moment. It can really help assure that couple and help the couple build a thriving relationship regardless if his penis is functioning the way he wants to or not to,
Tanya: which I would imagine, even if.
Before that stage happens for a man, if men and women are showing up in this equal partnership sexual space, where it is safe, where there are conversations, where there is open, honest discussion about things that, that as are, because women’s bodies do that too, right? It becomes more difficult for us to have orgasms also and, and all of that.
So as we move into that older, space where our bodies are not as sexually responsive, having that safe, open space can create a place where sexuality can still exist. Though it may [00:20:00] shift and change and morph over the years into something else.
Dan: Yes, absolutely.
Tanya: Yeah. I heard a. It was on one of Jennifer Finlayson Fife’s podcasts, several weeks, and I don’t remember which one it was.
I think it may have been in her room for two, but she was talking about someone who, who said once that my husband and I make love every night, and sometimes we have sex.
Dan: Yes. I love that philosophy. I
Tanya: do too. I love that idea that, that every night we are connected. We are making love, like mm-hmm. We may not be having penis, vagina sex, but we Right.
Or any other type of sex, but we are connecting, we’re loving, we’re touching, we’re embracing we are. Mm-hmm. Having this space every day. Yes. That we’re together. And then sometimes we have sex. Right? Like that’s, that’s also a, a piece of it, but.
Dan: Right. Absolutely.
Tanya: Okay. Dan, what, is there anything that we haven’t talked about that you think men would want women to really know about their sexuality?
Anything we haven’t talked about?
Dan: [00:21:00] I guess my concluding thought is just have fun. I. Have fun together. That’s really what it’s like in the end. Sex is a recreational activity. It’s, it’s designed for fun. Yeah. It’s designed to make things great. So if there’s any part of your sexual relationship that isn’t fun, it’s not something you really are excited about or wanna participate in that you haven’t brought up ’cause you think it’s, hard to talk about.
Just easy to diminish. I challenge you to confront yourself in that and have a conversation with your spouse about it. It is so important that you build a sex life that you both want to participate in, and it’s okay if you make a few mistakes along the way. You both stumble to kind of figure it out. But you know, looking forward six months, a year, 10 years from now, wouldn’t you be glad.
That you figured out a way that both of you can create a sexual relationships, that you both want to play in and be a [00:22:00] part of. Yeah.
Yeah.
Dan: So, and recognize, the differences between men and women are designed to make us better as a whole when we work together towards that end. Not to take away one from the other or try to convert the other to be more like the other.
That’s not it. It’s about building something great that you both want to participate in. Mm-hmm. And have fun with it. I think sex can be a so much fun. So connecting and, incredible way to bring heaven into your home, I think.
Tanya: Yeah. Yeah. And it re, it takes two. To make that happen. Yes. Right. It takes, it takes both of us stepping in.
Dan: So duke it out, if that’s what it takes, work it out. If that’s what it takes. Get help, get coaching, if that’s what it takes. Yeah. But do what it takes to have a great sex life. You need it. Yeah. You deserve it.
Tanya: Yeah. And I think our relationships will never reach their, their most intimate, incredible, connected potential without, [00:23:00] yes, without this healthy sexual space.
Dan: Yes, for sure.
Tanya: Okay, Dan, that was so great. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts with us today.
Dan: Thank you.
Tanya: Okay. Will you just give kind of a rundown? Where can my listeners find you? All the good things I.
Dan: Yes. you mentioned my app earlier. It’s called Intimately Us and you can find it for free on the Google Place or the Apple App Store.
Uh, that’s a great way to begin. Also, my website, get your marriage on.com. I have a link to all my resources, of course, my podcast, my Instagram, Facebook, and, I put on virtual retreats and in-person retreats. I also have a course and a coaching program designed for couples that wanna take their sex life to the next level.
Tanya: Love it. Thanks, Dan.
Dan: All right, thank you. Okay.
Tanya: have a great day, and we’ll chat with you another time.
Dan: All right.
/ Thank you for listening to this episode, please share it along with our apps and timidly us. And just between us with their married friends. I promise they will thank you for life. If [00:24:00] you want a more meaningful sexual and intimate connection in your marriage, I invite you to check out my, get your marriage on program.
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