**SEXTEMBER STARTS ON SUNDAY, SEPTEMBER 1. DOWNLOAD THE INTIMATELY US APP TO PARTICIPATE**
My hope for you after listening to today’s episode is you’ll laugh a little, be inspired and gain some practical tools that you can use to improve communication about intimate things in your marriage.
My guest today is Alyson Bullock, a marriage and family therapist, communication coach, and has a popular Instagram account @relationshipswithaly.
Today, Alyson and I are going to chat about your questions that will cover topics such as the following:
- How to talk to your spouse about wanting more variety in spice in the bedroom
- How to talk to your spouse if what they want to do with you in the bedroom is a bit too much outside your comfort zone
- How to discuss mismatched sexual desire
- How to address resentments in your marriage, especially when things feel lopsided when it comes to sharing household chores and the mental load of running a home
And we’re going to talk about some really fun, practical things to implement in your marriage today!
Resources:
Women’s Small Group Coaching (Cohort starting in October)
Couples Retreat in St. George, UT, October 10-13
Disclaimer: The opinions and values expressed by guests on the Get Your Marriage On! podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions and values of the host. Appearance on the podcast does not imply an endorsement of the guest or their products by Get Your Marriage On or its host. While we work hard to bring you quality and valuable content, listeners are encouraged to use their own best judgment in applying the information or products discussed on this podcast.
Transcript
This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors or inaccuracies. For the most accurate and complete experience, we recommend listening to the full podcast episode.
Episode 203
Dan: My hope for you after listening to today’s episode is you’ll laugh a little, be inspired and gain some practical tools that you can use to improve communication about intimate things in your marriage. My guest today is Allison Bullock. We’ve been friends for a couple of years. She’s a marriage and family therapist and has a popular Instagram account relationships with Allie.
I recommend you follow her. If you don’t already. Today, Alyson
are going to chat about questions that every seed from many of you listeners will cover topics such as how to talk to your spouse about wanting more variety in spice in the bedroom. We’ll also talk about the flip side, how to talk to your spouse.
If what they want to do with you in the bedroom is a bit too much outside your comfort zone. How to discuss mismatch, sexual desire and how to address resentments in your marriage, especially when things feel lopsided, when it comes to sharing household chores and the mental load of renting a home. So you’re in for a real treat.
We’re going to talk about some really fun, practical things today. Sex timber is also right around the corner. Be sure to download the intimately S app and join along sex. Timber is so much more than increasing sexual frequency for a month. It’s about identifying one or two obstacles that typically get in the way of a deeper, more meaningful connection between you and your spouse. Couples that participate in sex timber in the past have written to me saying that they feel closer.
That they’re better at listening to each other, that they feel more cherished and they’re having a lot more fun together. In addition to sex, timber enrollment is open for my signature program. They get your marriage on program. This is for couples and individuals that want a more solid relationship.
And this is how you can work with me. One-on-one privately. And let me coach you through applying the principles that we talk about on this podcast, into your marriage. Over a hundred couples have been in this program and it’s been a life changer for them. Couples who participate, find practical tools that transform their marriages and all these details are@getyourmarriageon.com.
You can click on programs or click on the results link. Now let’s begin this conversation with Alyson.
Alyson, welcome to the get your marriage on podcast. How are you today?
Aly: Hey, thanks so much. Thanks for having me. I’m doing well. I just swam outside for a few hours. It’s a beautiful day. So I’m happy to be here.
Dan: Very good.
Now you’ve been married for how long?
Aly: I was freshman. Sean, my husband, is four years older and he got a lot of flack for picking me up at the dorms for our first date.
Dan: That’s funny. And, , like 18 months or 20 months later, you’re married from that point. It seems
Aly: Yes, yes. I went on a mission to Milan, Italy, where Sean had actually also served prior, and we had that connection. And then, you know, two months after I was, I was home in typical LDS fashion, I was engaged and we were married four months after that.
Dan: very good. . Today I want to talk to you because you’re a trained therapist. You’re also really into relationships. I love your Instagram. You’re really good at challenging people think through how they respond in various circumstances. So I’ve got a few scenarios I’ve put together and they all kind of follow this theme of how to communicate about sex in marriage, and as well as sharing the mental load in the home to create a better relationship, should we dive into these?
Aly: Let’s dive in. I’m excited.
Dan: Great. Okay. Here’s the first scenario. This is what this person said. We’ve been married for 12 years and have three kids. Our sex life has its ups and downs seasons where it’s dry as a desert, but other seasons where it’s lush like a rain forest. Lately though, it’s been more on the dry spell side, but not for lack of frequency.
We still have sex, but it’s become quite routine. My wife uses a vibrator, which is fine, but it’s, As if we have sex where she uses the vibrator to have her orgasm and then it’s my turn to have my orgasm, and then we clean up and go to sleep. I want more passion, but I think my wife likes it the way it is and doesn’t want to change the routine.
I’m afraid if I suggest doing sex in any other way, we’ll go back into a drier spell. What advice do you have for me?
Aly: Wow. So a few things stick out to me. And the first is that he says, well, does he say he, I don’t know.
Dan: It’s a he. [00:05:00] Uh huh. Yep. Uh huh.
Aly: says, I’m afraid. If I suggest, and I’m afraid stuck out because vulnerability is always risky.
Every time. And you have to risk rejection to get connection.
And that’s scary. It makes sense to be afraid of that. So of course you weigh the pros and cons, but what I want this person to remember is that just because something feels scary doesn’t mean that’s a sign not to do it.
And so I think having the conversation is necessary. I would start with. What’s going well. So I’m so happy we both have an orgasm. I’m so happy that you’re comfortable with the vibrator and I’m happy to have you come first if you want. And then maybe pose some questions. So what if I tried using the vibrator on you or on me, right?
Or what if we switched up the order? What if we tried the vibrator during penetration? So using things that are already working and just posing some questions about how could we adjust these to make something a little more interesting.
Dan: In relationships, we often prioritize our own comfort a lot. Like in this case, I’m afraid to rock the boat or whatever it is. We have that strong tendency, and I like what you said, we got a risk rejection to get connection, has a nice ring to it,
Aly: Yeah.
Dan: but that risk is scary.
Why do we tend to prioritize our own comfort over taking risks? Taking risks.
Aly: You know, I think it does depend on the person. Some people are naturally more risk averse than others, but generally don’t we all want to self protect?
I think that’s a human part of us, especially when you think about inner child work, we just want to be safe. We don’t want anyone to be mad at us. We don’t want anyone to dislike us.
And I think that’s just a really natural, common human experience.
Dan: Right. Right.
Aly: Yeah.
Dan: Any other thoughts maybe from the wife’s perspective here?
Aly: Well, I was thinking about if he were to introduce this topic, kind of got past his fear and said, I. I want to try some new things and risk a possible dry spell. I would say set aside a night for this. So set aside like we’re getting a babysitter or we’re going to a hotel or make it special. So there’s not stress.
So you can slow down in private, have the conversation in a setting where no one is going to be too distracted or, you know, thinking about a million other things. And I think the conversation will go a lot better if you do that. And then one other thought I had was, you also could still have the same sex routine.
So like she uses the vibrator, then it’s my turn, but switch up where you do it
or switch up how you’re talking while you do it, or
if there’s music or no music. So there are definitely ways to change things up while still helping her feel safe in that routine.
Dan: Gotcha. Great. Uh, I wonder, for a couple like this, if the root of the issue isn’t the vibrator, and it’s not the order in which they’re doing sex, it’s that they’re both unwilling to extend themselves to be a little more vulnerable. So that there’s a little more passion in the relationship. Do you find that in couples you work with too?
There’s this, uh, the amount of risk you’re willing to tolerate is highly correlated to the amount of passion the marriage can handle
I, you know, I hadn’t thought of it like that, but I definitely think that would apply.
one time,
Dan: we were so furious at each other.
Uh huh.
Aly: talking at all. And I literally was in my head saying like, I have to do something to break the ice.
And I was, I was afraid because, you know, we were upset cause we were supposed to go on a date, blah, blah, blah, et
cetera, sitting there and I reach over and just put a hand on my husband’s back.
That’s all I did, but it was risky
Dan: Yes.
Aly: to risk that. And then, you know,
you know what happened.
Dan: Uh huh. Right, right.
Aly: Definitely. It was about taking a risk and that’s kind of where the passion and the freedom and all that came from
Dan: Great. All right. Love it. Take a risk. If things are routine, it’s because you’re afraid to take a risk. Take a risk. All right. Next scenario. Ready? This is the wife saying, my husband has a pass of pornography use. When I found out three years of his pornography use into our marriage, I was devastated. I don’t think he has viewed porn in a while, and I am glad that we’re past that stage.
But he wants to do what I think are kinkier things with me in bed. I’m kind of a plain Jane Vanilla type person, and I’m afraid that his ideas come from porn and that’s what’s driving it. He wants to sext with me more. I have done it a little, but I’m afraid that doing it more will invite him to go look at photos of other naked women.
Dan: Of course, we have a hard time discussing these things face to face. Can you help me?
Aly: I really feel for this person. It’s, it’s such a hard position to be in. I think even if porn use is, isn’t currently happening in the marriage, it can still just bring up a lot of emotions and fears and [00:10:00] insecurities. And so I’m just feeling for this person, but I appreciate that they are, it sounds like they’re willing to try. She says, I’ve done a little. But again, I’m, I’m afraid.
And so when I think about this couple, I think really there needs to be more open communication, more honest communication, even though it’s a really challenging topic that could possibly bring up a lot of shame.
Dan: Mm hmm.
Aly: I think it’s important to talk about it. And the main thing I would want to have them talk about is what is the purpose of these types of things for you?
So husband, what is the purpose of wanting to try some kinkier things or wanting to sext? And if that purpose. feels very genuine and authentic to creating a more loving relationship with each other, to creating a more passionate relationship with each other, then maybe the wife will feel safer, but she has to be able to hear that from him.
Dan: Right. Right. So, as I think of the root of the issue here too, and you mentioned honest communication, I can see how that would be difficult for this couple when he was hiding pornography use and then she found it, right? So she kind of has this default setting of there might be more behind this story that he’s not telling me.
So when he says, I want to try kinkier things. She can really think, like, there must be more, you might be talking to people that I don’t know about, you might be looking at things that I don’t know about, where is this idea coming from, so her defenses really go up,
which is natural, I think.
And maybe for her part, she hasn’t been completely honest with her ambivalence over the sexting thing. Like I kind of want to, I kind of don’t,
Aly: Yeah.
Dan: it hasn’t been expressed that I’m afraid to do this out of fear of maybe hurting his feelings too. I might be reading into this too.
Aly: Or even, you know, I really don’t want to do this, but I’m afraid if I don’t, will there be consequences?
Dan: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s honest.
Aly: Yeah,
that is honest. One thing you said made me think if he’s bringing these ideas up, kind of out of the blue, that is going to cause some red flags to go up for her. Like you said of,
Oh, did you watch something new?
Like, where is this coming from? And so if I were this couple and I wanted to be able to be more exploratory, maybe do some things we haven’t tried before, I would suggest maybe they read a book together. book they’re both comfortable with that talks about some of these ideas.
And then they know, this is where we’re getting this information from.
So they’re kind of on the same page about it. And it doesn’t come as like a shock or maybe this ambiguous, scary thing.
Dan: Great. Or he could carefully select the book, read it first, highlight doggy ear the page and say, let’s read this together. Just kidding. That’s manipulative. Don’t do that. I’ve done that before, but that’s the idea, right? If it’s a neutral third party suggesting it’s different, but about the out of the blue thing, I think it is a common pattern where it feels out of the blue to the wife.
Like, where did this come from? But the reality is he’s been thinking about it for months, mulling it over. Do I say anything? Do I not? Do I say anything? Do I not? And he’s thought through the scenarios. He thought through those things, but for all she knows, it’s feels like out of the blue for her, like it was a spontaneous thing.
Aly: Yeah. And one thing actually that you posted a few weeks ago, I think relates to this in my mind, which was, you said something about how you tried something new and you wanted your wife to like it as much as you had. Right. And so you’d be careful about encouraging like, Oh, like, how was it? Did you like it?
Et cetera. Instead of waiting for her to express that. And I think. You know, the same principles applies in a scenario like this. There has to be space for wife to say, I didn’t like that. Or I don’t want to try that again. Or I did without it all coming from him.
Dan: Yeah, right, right, right. That’s good. That’s good.
Aly: But one more thing for this couple. If this is a really scary topic, I would say, bring in a third party. So get a couple’s therapist or an intimacy coach and have that third party there to help facilitate this conversation, even just one or two times. And then you’ll be able to talk about it a lot more easily on your own.
Dan: Great. Yeah. It kind of gives you the training wheels, so to speak, to get your feet under you. So you’re more capable of having these conversations together without always depending on a third party for that.
Aly: There’s also actually a resource that I use with a lot of the couples I work with. It’s called the Sexual Genogram, and it’s 35 questions that ask all sorts of things about your sexual beliefs, your sexual history, your experiences, the messages you receive from your caregivers about sex.
And, um, yeah. That is a resource I direct couples to, like, fill it out and read your responses to each other. And that’s a safe place to start just to learn a lot more about where does this, where does this stuff come from?
Dan: That’s cool. That does help. That’s great. And then the intimately [00:15:00] us app, we do have what we call the sexploration list. And that’s where you fill out a questionnaire. She fills out the questionnaire or your spouse does. I mean, you do, your spouse does, and you can compare your answers and there’s No different packs of questions for all different aspects of marital intimacy and sexual intimacy too.
Aly: Amazing. That’s a good resource.
Dan: So you can kind of understand where you’re coming from. It’s like a yes, no, maybe list.
Aly: Yeah.
Dan: In depth,
Aly: Yeah. It’s just like a good conversation starter to then. Dive deeper into those topics with each other.
Dan: but again, it’s comes back to courage to be honest. Can I honestly talk about where these are and honestly say, no, I’m not interested in that,
Aly: Yeah.
Dan: that’d be okay too.
Aly: And then as painful as it may be, maybe part of that honesty, I don’t think this is always the case, but maybe part of the honesty is, yeah, I did see this somewhere, or I did learn about this somewhere in the past and that was part of my story and that’s here on the table now. And I know that that is hurtful.
And can we have a conversation about it?
Dan: That’s right. And perhaps another way to look at it too, not to disregard the hurt that this couple has experienced because of, the impact of the pornography use, like setting that aside just for a minute in the end. sexual behavior whether it’s portrayed in pornography or that you as a couple creatively create yourself, like the, the source matters less than what meanings you’re creating, doing it,
Aly: Totally.
Dan: even missionary position, vanilla sex, I’m sure is in some pornographic depictions.
It doesn’t automatically make it evil or wrong. Or, couples that really enjoy oral sex, that might be depicted too, they might get the idea, but it just spoke to their eroticism, now they incorporate it into their relationship, and they find a lot of goodness in that too, so, You can look to the fruit of what it does, more than the source and where it came from.
I think
Aly: Yeah, especially going back to the idea of talking about the purpose. What is the purpose of this for us now and from this point forward, right? We have our past and we’ve, we’re working through that and how can we go forward now?
Dan: I like that purpose. It’s like a purpose driven approach to what we’re going to do in bed. Great. Ready for the next scenario?
Aly: I’m ready.
Dan: I feel guilty that my libido isn’t the same as my spouse’s. How do I get my libido higher to match? I don’t think about sex as often because my mind is preoccupied. But what our kids need, my projects at work drama with extended family.
And frankly, I’m still tired and haven’t caught up on sleep. Since my kids were sick last, I just don’t have the energy like my spouse does.
Aly: Hmm. Yeah. This is pretty common. This, this rings true for a lot of people. I think.
Dan: Yeah, I think so too.
Aly: Is this a female
Dan: It’s written generic, so I think we can assume female, but I’ve worked with couples where it’s the male with lower sex drive. So I want to put that caveat there that if you’re in a marriage where you’re the wife with the higher sex drive, there’s nothing wrong with you. There’s, there’s, It’s not like you’re a freak.
That’s not the case
in marriages. Just as you can marry someone who’s taller than you or shorter than you, you’re going to marry someone who has higher sex drive or higher desire for sex than you.
And.
Over your lifetime, it can flip flop too. So who is higher desire or lower desire? I think matters less for a question like this, but let’s assume it’s the female with the lower sexual desire for the intents of this question.
Aly: Well, and the reason I ask that is because you have talked about, and I’ve learned from other people in this field as well, about the desire to arousal framework
How often for men, desire comes first.
Dan: Yes.
Aly: Arousal second, often for women, arousal comes first, desire second.
And so it’s tricky in this like low libido situation. If you think, you know, I’m just not into it for a lot of women. You sometimes it really is helpful to get into it and then you want it.
And then that’s when fire kicks in. Then that’s when you feel like, Oh, you know,
this is nice. And so that’s why I think scheduling sex can be really helpful for someone in the situation. So, you know, you know, Of all my things to do, this is one of them.
And once I start, then I’ll start to enjoy it. Then I’ll start to feel that desire kick in.
That can be one way to go about it. But I think she did say, or the person says, I think male or female, this applies, that they want to get their libido higher.
And I would also look at medical stuff going on. So I would look at any medications that they’re taking, any other medical challenges or issues that are happening first to make sure that that’s not what’s impacting it. So I would make sure that all those bases are covered [00:20:00] because a lot of medications impact libido. A lot of other things, autoimmune diseases, et cetera, impact libido. So I would get that checked out before trying a bunch of other stuff,
Dan: And there can also be just be like men create more testosterone and testosterone does help towards higher sexual desire. so she’s probably married to someone that just has more desire abundant because his body creates more of a testosterone. Climate where he can move towards that a lot easier.
He
Aly: right?
Dan: And so comparing yourself to your husband, like, shouldn’t my libido be as high as his? You might be asking yourself an impossible question and you’re setting yourself up for, for a failure just to begin with because of biology.
Aly: Totally. That word guilty at the beginning caught my eye because you absolutely should not feel guilty about your libido, right? We
don’t want anyone to feel guilty about this. We want varying libidos to be normalized and for you to feel like. This is fine. If this is where I’m at, one other thing coming to mind is that emotional connection can really increase libido.
And so I would have this couple look at with all the stuff going on, are they connecting emotionally? And if they’re not, then it’s going to be pretty hard, usually for the woman to feel like she wants sex.
Dan: Yes.
Aly: And that’s an important place to start as well.
Dan: Yep, and it’s hard to connect emotionally when you’re just running ragged all the time too. So you got to look at all of this. Definitely.
Aly: You also mentioned how this can flip flop over your lifetime. And so patients having patients with each other. And I like to use this phrase with my clients. I say, I feel this way for now, not forever.
Dan: I like that. I like that.
Aly: It’s okay to feel this way for now.
Dan: Good. Hopefully that’s helpful for anyone in a similar situation. I I just do want to say one more thing to like, thinking that your libido has to match your spouse or there’s, there’s something broken about you, I think is a counterproductive thought. cause you’re placing an undue demand on yourself and I think that pressure is going to be counterproductive and it’s going to work against you trying to have a higher libido.
Aly: Right.
Dan: it’s like Last week, I tried to go to sleep early, and I wasn’t tired, but the more I thought about wanting to go to sleep, the harder I tried to sleep, the more awake I became. I think sometimes we try to force our libido, like, come on, you know, increase more, and I think it works
Aly: Totally.
Dan: us in that same way.
Aly: Yeah. Yeah, if you, if you fixate on something too much, it’s going to be hard to get there.
Dan: Yeah. Alright, here’s our last scenario for the day. She says, I got the courage to ask my husband the other day, what’s hard about being married to me? So she’s asking him, honey, what’s hard about you being married to me? He said that I’m too strict and don’t let the kids play enough. This brought up a lot of resentment.
My husband is a happy go lucky guy and is playful with the kids. I like, I feel like I’m the one left to discipline, to teach the kids to do their chores first before they can play. But my husband wants them to be able to play and worry about their chores later. I resent that I’m the one that has to do all the work and he gets to do all the play and then tells me I need to play more.
Aly: When I first read this scenario, I thought this would drive me crazy. If my husband said that to me, I would be so upset.
Dan: Uh huh,
Aly: So I guess I get where she’s coming from because a lot of times in this type of relationship, the bad cop, right, feels that they have been forced into that role.
And that really sucks.
It really sucks.
Dan: And then to be told, you’re the bad cop, stop being a bad cop, and you can’t have two nice cops.
Aly: Yeah, exactly.
I mean, there’s this phrase you hear all the time, which is if I don’t do it, it won’t get done.
Dan: Yes. All the time.
Aly: And that is a heavy weight for the, the person in the relationship who’s carrying the mental load and who’s carrying the discipline load and who’s carrying all of those things that kind of keep the household running.
Dan: Yes.
Aly: really hard to stop and then watch chaos happen.
Dan: Uh huh.
Aly: And so a few things they can start with, I think, you know, first open dialogue. Yeah. So, in this case, a book I would recommend to this couple is called Fair Play
Dan: I’ve read
that book. Yes. Uh huh.
Aly: Okay.
Okay. I think, you know, I don’t agree with everything in the book and I think it can come off as a little bit
Dan: Feminist. Very, very strong feminist. It can come across that way. Uh huh.
Aly: It can come across that way, but I tell my, all my male clients, you’re going to feel defensive when you read this book,
but I want you to work through that and read it anyway because I think the insights are so valuable in helping you understand where your wife is [00:25:00] coming from.
Dan: Right.
Aly: It talks about so many of these mental load challenges and the kind of unfair position that many women are put in. So anyway, open dialogue, maybe they read that book together, maybe they go to therapy and talk about these issues.
Dan: Can I talk a little about fair play of just a little more like what I got from that book? I got a lot of ahas out of that. And the first one is yeah, I get men and women are equal. Yeah. Yeah. Whatever. But my behavior didn’t match it when it came to use of time. And this book really helped me see that I would count my time, like my dollars per hour, so to speak, as more valuable as my wife’s dollars per hour.
Kind of like as a business owner, you have employees that, that earn less for those are the ones doing more of the menial errands compared to your higher paid people are going to do more thought work, right? I treated my wife as the employee with that’s does the menial work in our relationship.
And it wasn’t, it was, It wasn’t fair because I was spending my, um, it was the way I just thought an hour of my time is more valuable than hers.
It wasn’t equal. And so that book really woke me up to that fact. And, I’d like to say I’ve mended my ways and much better at, sharing the load in those aspects. So that’s helped us.
Aly: Yes, my favorite chapter from that book is the Toxic Time Myths chapter, where they go through all of those time related things. I think it’s so helpful.
Dan: Right, right.
Aly: For this person, a few reflection questions to ask herself might be where did my, you know, quote strictness come from,
Dan: Mm
Aly: or where does my desire for control come from?
And I don’t ask those questions to have her feel like she’s the problem or blame her,
but I do think it’s helpful for people to self reflect and understand maybe this is because this is what I saw my mom do in our relationship.
Or maybe this is what I feel like is expected of me.
And to be able to understand that and do that, and then let some of those expectations go
might help her find more areas to play in the relationship or in the family.
Dan: There can also be an over function, under function dynamic in this marriage, where the over function means you do more than, your share, and under function, you do less than your share. But we do it on purpose to deal with anxiety. Like, she’s uncomfortable with the idea of, leaving some things to him.
Therefore, she does more. Because in the moment you feel better because, ah, at least it got, at least I got the dishwasher loaded the right way, right? At least, so you feel better in the
Aly: Right.
Dan: but then you have resentment afterwards and then the under functioner, uh, Hey, they, they get a, they don’t have to put as much skin in the game and they get the benefit.
So, but that precludes them from really growing and developing as a full person too, they don’t learn vital skills. Uh, how to relate emotionally and relationally with other people if you’re constantly under function,
Aly: Absolutely. And I see this a lot with couples that come in for therapy is the underfunctioner will not really be invested in therapy because it doesn’t benefit them,
Dan: right?
Aly: They are
benefiting from being the fun parent.
Dan: Yes. Yes.
Aly: And to change that is going to be really hard. So of course, why would they want to come or invest in that?
Dan: Right. Right. Right. I had a business partner once and I was the over functioning business partner and he was the under functioning business partner and we couldn’t have honest conversations about it. that was my first mistake and I would just over function and keep over functioning thinking if I kept doing this he will appreciate me and then finally step up and do his part.
But I, I perpetuated the problem until it became such a severe problem the partnership couldn’t you. Hold together in the business partnership dissolved. And looking back, it would have been very different. Had I, we could be more honest about the under functioning or address my own over functioning.
Aly: Absolutely. I think your word honesty reminds me of how important it will be for this couple to talk about the resentment. Honestly, she says it’s brought up a lot of resentment and resentment is poison to a relationship. And so being able to have some honest conversations where she can express what this has done to her emotionally, what this means for her, how she’s viewing herself now. And all the self doubt of, wow, are my children going to think I’m boring or strict? And there’s so much there, but he really is going to have to learn how to listen and understand his role. And I think at least from what I have seen with the couples that I’ve worked with, [00:30:00] it can bring up a lot of defensiveness for many men when their wife expresses this resentment, and so it’s helpful, again, a plug for therapy or coaching, whatever, helpful to do it with a third person present, to be able to identify the defensiveness, help them both re regulate, and then talk about the deeper issues in a safe environment.
Dan: That’s great. Anything else you want to talk about when it comes to regulating and talking in a safe environment?
Aly: Regulating. I wish more couples took breaks.
Dan: Uh
Aly: A lot of people try and start these deep conversations and think that they have to finish the conversation right then. But if you’re escalated, you’re not hearing what your partner’s saying. Take a break, but you always have to tell them when you’re coming back. That’s the number one rule of the break is, I will be back in 20 minutes. Or let’s talk about this tomorrow morning at 10 a. m. Because if you don’t, Then one person is going to feel abandoned and be like, okay, we’re never talking about it again.
Dan: Right. And you just spiral more and more and more. Right.
Aly: I think taking breaks can really help with regulation.
Dan: What else helps with regulation? You mentioned taking a break, maybe sleeping if you’re doing the next day.
What
Aly: Have you, have you ever done co regulation exercises?
Dan: No, what’s that?
Aly: Okay. So this is the theory that our bodies. And our nervous systems can be really in sync with someone that we’re in a room with.
Think mother and baby,
Dan: Yeah, yeah. Uh huh.
Aly: They’re breathing together. They’re so in sync. You can do the same thing with your partner.
And so what this looks like during a session is I will tell a couple to turn and face each other and hold hands. and look at each other and just breathe and try and match their breath
Dan: Uh huh.
Aly: or I’ll have them sit back to back. Same thing. And just based on the touch of their back, I’ll have them breathe and try and be in sync with each other.
Dan: Mm hmm.
Aly: Exercises like that are really unnatural at first in the middle of a fight,
Dan: Yeah. Yes, absolutely. Uh huh.
Aly: regulate you so well because every single time there has not been a time I’ve done that with a couple where they haven’t said, Oh, I feel better now. You like I can talk about this.
Dan: Yeah. Right. And I think the key to all that is
you have different parts of your brain, right? You have the very highly reactive emotional center of your brain, but that’s different than the thinking part of your brain. So in a fight, when you’re emotionally stimulated, You’re not processing, you’re not thinking with the more advanced prefrontal cortex part of your brain.
And guess which part of your brain is involved in creating and forming relationships and solving problems in that relationship? It’s the front part of your brain, right? That prefrontal cortex. But if it’s, if you can’t, if you can’t reach it because you’re too activated, you do need to learn how to like, well, as I like to say, calm the heck down.
That’s a good co regulation exercise. Any other exercises you’d like to give couples?
Aly: Those are the ones that come off the top of my head.
How about you? What do you do?
Dan: I like to go for a walk or a run when I’m activated, because it, uh, movement to me just helps me calm down. Another thing that helps me in the moment, if I can’t do that, is I just call it a five senses scan. It’s like, what do I see, smell, touch, taste? right now and that kind of grounds me a bit. so I think that helps, but I think it’s a practice.
It’s something you get better at. You get to put in the reps, right? You got to get better and better at this ability to calm the heck down so that you can think
Aly: I’m going to reuse that phrase from now on. I love that.
Dan: great. Allie, anything else you want to share?
Aly: Yeah. On the topic of fair play and mental load and all that, this is something that comes up. I think in most relationships, including my own, you know, even though I’m a marriage and family therapist, that does not mean I have a perfect relationship. And when I became a fair play facilitator, I thought, okay, I have to do this in my own marriage.
You know, we’re going to be so on board. We’re going this. There’s going to be no tension with household tasks, et cetera.
And the first time I sat down to do the exercise with my husband, we got in a fight and we didn’t touch it for months.
Dan: Uh,
Aly: We did not. And so meanwhile, I was, you know, helping other couples do this process, but I wasn’t going to bring it up again in my own relationship. Finally, we decided once a month on a Friday night, we’re going to do a fair play date.
Dan: Uh huh.
Aly: Where we’re just going to choose two, two of the cards, which once you read the book, you’ll know kind of what I’m talking about, but two of the cards means two household tasks.
And we would go through and decide who’s going to do what, what’s it going to look like? What do we agree on? What’s the minimum standard of care, which is basically to what level of perfection do you need to do this task for it to be to count
or be a success?
And so when we came back to it, And we decided on four tasks. Dishes, laundry, cleanup, and cooking. Dishes, laundry, cleanup, and cooking. And I will tell [00:35:00] you, after about two weeks, my husband said, This was life changing. Like I love this system. And he totally changed his tune where the first time we tried it, it brought up a lot of defensiveness, a lot of resentment.
Once we actually implemented it, it made such a difference because we both knew who was doing what,
Dan: Mm hmm.
Aly: and it actually allowed us to be more flexible. Because a lot of people think, well, if we’re so strict about who do, who’s doing what, but something comes up, how do you deal with that? That, that doesn’t become an issue because when you know what you’re responsible for,
then you’re able to ask for an exception
Dan: Right.
Aly: and you’re able to say, Oh, and I know that I’ll do this next week because we have this agreement.
And you also feel like your partner sees you, they see your contributions, they understand how much you’re doing. And yeah, I just highly recommend it to couples struggling with household labor, mental load, all that stuff.
Dan: That’s cool. I have a product on my website. it’s like that. It’s a mental load, activity for couples, but we have a template that you attach sticky notes to, and you put it in through your, your printer at home. So it prints out all those cards, so to speak, on sticky notes. Then you can find a blank wall in, in the house, in your bedroom maybe, or on the back of your door.
And then you can put the sticky notes on the, on the sides that you want to. But in practice, what helped you and your husband is instead of trying to tackle the whole elephant in one sitting, it looks like you just started with two. And then you added two more, right?
Aly: And actually we’ve only, we’ve only kept those four and we’re getting to the point finally where it’s routine enough that we’ll be able to add a few. But when you try and do it all at once, it’s not going to go well.
Dan: Okay. So in real life, if you’re listening to this and you want to fix this in your marriage, start small, you don’t have to take everything all at once.
Aly: are you in charge of? What’s one thing you’re in charge of at your house?
Dan: great question. I’m in charge of our laundry. I cook a few times a week, I do the trash, I pay the bills, I do the big shopping like Costco and things like that. I will meal plan, I will do transportation for kids for some of the things, especially in the evenings. I joke and call it my second job, I’m a taxi driver.
Aly: Has it always been like that in your relationship?
Dan: um, no, not always. I think I’ve really stepped up more over the years. And, and here’s the thing about me. I’m an entrepreneur. I’ve got the entrepreneur brain. Um, uh, and like a stereotypical entrepreneur, it’s you’re in startup mode all the time. So you’re working all the time.
And My habit used to be I’d go to work, work a full day, running teams, trying to build the business.
And when I’d leave the office, I’d have a little to do list on my phone or on a piece of paper of what I would get to that night after the kids are in bed. So I’d come home, family time, clean up, kids in bed. And I just look forward to a few hours of quiet to myself without the phone ringing, without emails bombarding me.
And I could just think, and I would. be most productive, two hours of productive time in my entire day after the kids are in bed, without being in an office environment. So when I wrote my proposals, I had to do my deepest thinking. And I, I cherished and craved that, that two hour evening time, but I was working all the time.
But this was the pattern. This is a standard operating procedure in my marriage for 12 years. This is just the way we did things.
Aly: Okay.
Dan: And then we discovered sex. I say that half joking. Then we discovered, like,
that’s when we really had our ahas, our epiphanies as a couple that, wait a minute,
Aly: Yes. Yeah.
Dan: there’s We really looked at each other and in the middle of all those really deep, vulnerable conversations we’re having, trying to discover our sex life and what it is, which is the Genesis for get your marriage on
out of that also came all of these things talking about, be more honest, right?
Like hidden resentments that I had no
Aly: Yeah.
Dan: was my time, that two hours in my home office, doing that work away from my wife.
And, uh, she would usually just read a book in bed, which means, um, Was her recipe for falling asleep. And I’d come into bed later and then we’d go to bed. I sleep with her, of course, but it was kids from bed.
Oof, I’m off on a different plan. So, uh, fixing that at first was really scary for me because that was my. Most cherished time for me to do work. And now I’m being asked to give it up to be with my wife on the surface. Looked like it was a sacrifice. but I wanted a better marriage. So invest like giving that up at first was really scary and I had to break habits.
I had to break the habit of making the to do list before I leave the office every [00:40:00] day. but as I pushed myself towards and I committed to no longer work at night at home, and instead. be more present with my wife and try to have a better relationship with her. I saw the benefits. It took a month, but the benefits were really clear, but it had a side benefit that I didn’t recognize at the time is constraints are actually good for people.
Constraints make force us to think, to decide and make decisions that we wouldn’t see other ways. So now that I took my typical 12 hour work day and shrunk it to 10 hours, Or whatever it was, I had to get just the same amount of work done in less amount of time. Well, that forced me to be more
productive when I was at work so that I got more done when I was at work.
So when I was home, I could actually really be home and be fully present at home. So that’s, that was my experience
through all
Aly: that. And I think the takeaway from that for me too is that when you prioritize sex and intimacy, like all the other things will come up.
Dan: Yes,
Aly: you have, cause that’s the most vulnerable, and
so I think what the work you’re doing is amazing. It’s probably helping couples in so many more areas than just the bedroom.
Yeah.
Dan: And it’s funny. I’m glad you said that. people do think I’m in the sex business, but I’m not. But I don’t view it that way. I’m in the people development business, but the most effective and fastest way to get to that, I think is through sex, because like, just like what you said, it hits on all of the points.
So
Aly: Love that. So cool.
Dan: Alyson, this has been a such a great conversation. Where can people go to learn more about you and what you do and the therapy you provide?
Aly: So you can find me. In two main places on Instagram, I’m relationships with Allie and I provide all sorts of little tidbits, communication tips, couple’s therapy tips. And then on my website, allisonbullock. com, A L Y S O N, um, I have a few different offerings, a few different ways that you can work with me.
And my favorite that I would love to get more clients with is called my relationship consultation. And this is a 90 minute consultation. It’s a one time session with me and with you as a couple, or you as an individual, we tackle one issue, one problem. And then you leave with a one to two page document of next steps, resources. And it’s such a cool offering. I think for couples who don’t feel that they need. therapy, but they just have a little block somewhere. So I would love to meet you if that is something that interests you.
Dan: That’s great. Very good. Thank you.
Thank you for listening today, we have a tradition on this podcast where I read a recent review. Those who reviews get read, can email support@gaymarriageon.com. And I will personally mail you a gift to thank you for your time. And for your review, this week’s reviewer said this.
Great episode really spoke to my heart.
I’m a victim of childhood sexual assault when I was nine years old. Thank you for that episode, you have an amazing podcast. Since that assault I’ve been basically a sexual. My wife is not a fan of my asexual feelings. I’m hoping that your podcast would get me back in the game. I’m so sorry to hear about your sexual assault as a child.
That is horrible. And no one should go through that. And I’m sorry that you’ve had that. I’m also grateful to hear that this podcast is giving you some hope that there’s actually more available for you that you’re not stuck, or you’re not tied to your circumstances. I am passionate about this work of helping couples have the absolute best sex and intimacy in their marriages, because I believe it blesses not only the couple but many generations afterwards, and the reason is good.
Sex is really good for your brain. It’s good for your health. It’s good for your children and your grandchildren. It’s good because good sex requires you to be honest, requires you to be a good listener. It. Pushes you to become more caring, more benevolent, and just to be more virtuous and a better person as a result.
So if this podcast has been helpful for you. Please consider leaving a review today or sharing this podcast with your married friends. Or downloading our apps.
Intimately us is our most popular app. And it’s great. For any married couple. All right. Thank you. Talk to you next week.
