There’s definitely a spiritual element to developing an intimate marriage. For example, in order to have really good sex or really deep emotional connection with someone, it requires you to be more honest, true chaste, benevolent, and in short, to do good to your spouse. It requires you to be able to endure all things and to have a lot of hope and do the little things every day, the little micro things that actually matter to build an intimate marriage.
Our episode today is a recording of a conversation I had with my good friend, Rhonda Farr.
If you don’t know her, she is a marriage and intimacy coach a lot like myself. And we had a fantastic conversation about how our marriage changes us rather than us trying to change our marriage.
This is really relevant because we’re talking about the spiritual work of sexual development; this is the refining process, the part that expands us in our marriages to become the better version of who we are meant to become.
Resources:
Sexual Mindfulness Seminar Series with Dr. Chelom Leavitt
You can find links to all these and more at our website: getyourmarriageon.com
Disclaimer: The opinions and values expressed by guests on the Get Your Marriage On! podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions and values of the host. Appearance on the podcast does not imply an endorsement of the guest or their products by Get Your Marriage On or its host. While we work hard to bring you quality and valuable content, listeners are encouraged to use their own best judgment in applying the information or products discussed on this podcast.
Transcript
This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors or inaccuracies. For the most accurate and complete experience, we recommend listening to the full podcast episode.
Episode 209
Dan: Did you know that most outcome studies of couples that visit traditional sex therapy? Have very poor outcomes. What they do is two years after a couple goes to sex therapy, they asked them has their sexual relationship improved compared to how they were before therapy. And most people report no improvement.
They’re still just as dissatisfied two years later as they were before therapy.
Now this insight is particularly striking to me as a self-taught sex therapist and intimacy coach dedicated to transforming couples intimate lives. And as I dig deeper, I think it’s because conventional sex therapy, that model was developed in the 1960s and seventies by masters and Johnson. And it has a primary focus on the individual genitals and sexual dysfunction. There isn’t a lot of focus on sex and the context of a marriage relationship. Now if a couple struggles, let’s say mismatched libidos, which is the number one complaint that most people go to therapy for. One person wants sex more than the other person.
Now, if you’ve followed the masters and Johnson style of sex therapy, it probably will focus on the person with the lower sexual desire. And that person gets a lot of the attention in the therapy and they try to get that person to want sex more.
That might be helpful, but what if the problem isn’t entirely the lower desire spouse’s fault? What if the higher desire spouse plays a big part in the dissatisfaction of the marriage? I believe that both partners co-create their dynamic in the marriage. And thus, both people contribute to the challenges that they face in their relationship.
In my experience, sexual struggles are actually symptomatic of deeper issues within the relationship. And that’s why I believe traditional sex therapy. Isn’t that helpful at addressing desire differences, unless you also help the couple address, all the issues in their intimate relationship. Recognizing the shift from the focus of merely trying to fix the sex to understanding and nurturing the entire relationship is really important.
My guest today is Ronda Farr. She is an intimacy coach and a personal friend of mine. It today, you’re going to get some great things out of this interview. You’re going to hear about the time when a person asked her for sex while on an airplane. You’ll get to hear her thoughts and why high achievers struggle in intimacy and in their marriage.
You’ll also hear us. Role-play what a conversation might look like and addressing sexual desire. Difference concerns between a husband and a wife.
We have a tradition on this podcast where I read a recent review.
Dan: Your reviews are very important. If you’ll take a moment to pause this podcast right now and leave a review on apple podcasts. And if you hear your review, read on the air. Send an email to support@getyourmarriageon.com and I’ll personally mail you a gift to thank you.
So here’s a recent review. This person says
“This podcast has been tremendously helpful to me and better understanding my own responsibility and helping improve all aspects of intimacy in my marriage.
They do not shy away from topics that many in the Christian culture or environment considered taboo, but I feel like they do it in a very reverent, respectful way that acknowledges the sanctity of marital intimacy. And they always try to point things back to strengthening your marriage and being more selfless and not selfish. And so grateful for their candidness and addressing these topics.
And I wish I had this resource available to me much earlier in my married life.”
Amen. And thank you. Yes. That’s exactly what we’re all about here.
Okay. Tomorrow is June 1st. We’re kicking off our international lovemaking day challenge. As you know, June 9th is international lovemaking day. It should be on your calendar and circled because a six nine get at June 9th at six nine.
And that’s why it’s international lovemaking day. Anyway. We’re putting on the challenge leading up to this very important holiday. What you do is you complete simple intimacy [00:05:00] challenges with your spouse and you earn points and you can win prizes such as lingerie toys and tons of other goodies, all designed to make sex fun and strengthen your marriage in and out of the bedroom. All you need to do is download the intimately us app and get started. We also have two very different kinds of retreats coming up on July 12 to 13 is our virtual retreat.
This is perfect for couples that want to get away for a weekend and enjoy. some instruction from a hotel or from their home and learn techniques that will enhance sexual intimacy in your marriage. Our second retreat coming up in October 10th or 13th. This is our in-person retreat. And this is ideal for couples who are in otherwise happy marriages, but wish things were better in the intimacy and sex department. this is where we meet over four days and three nights in a picturesque destination.
And it’s like a vacation. You get great instruction from me and other coaches that I bring. There’s amazing food. We do really fun excursions, and this is great. If you really want to dig deeper into your relationship. And you want to have a great turnaround, in a short order when it comes to sex and intimacy in our relationship.
Alright, now let’s begin the interview with Rhonda Farr.
I am so honored that you’d come back on the podcast. This is the third time you’ve been on to get your marriage on podcast. So this is really special to me that you’d come back and I love our conversations.
Rhonda: Thank you, Dan. You just told me I’m number one, so I’d like to tell the listeners, Rhonda Farr is number one on the
Dan: That’s right.
Rhonda: podcast. Yes.
Dan: one was with you. Exactly. Very good. So you have this gift, Rhonda, of men opening up and talking about their private lives with you. They feel very comfortable in that. Can you tell me of a time when that got you in a little bit of trouble?
Rhonda: There was a time when I was on an airplane with a total stranger. I had to be sandwiched between these two guys. Never my favorite to be in the middle. I always choose the aisle seat if I can, not the window. I like the aisle because you never know if you’re gonna have to get up and pee. And the people pleaser in me does not want to have to bother the person beside me.
But anyway, before I even sat down, this guy that I was going to be sitting beside for the next four hours He said, Oh, thank goodness. It’s you. I didn’t know this guy. So I thought, what are you talking about? I sat down and he starts complimenting what he thinks is a compliment. Anyway, my size, my appearance, and I start feeling my skin crawl a little bit.
This guy starts opening up all this dialogue about the things that he enjoys physically, the things that he gets excited about. And he literally said, Would you like to join the mile high club today? And you might think he was joking. Like if I heard somebody else say this, I would be like, you’re over exaggerating, you’re joking.
I told him not really. And he proceeded to give me the instructions anyway, how many minutes to wait, where he was going to go. The guy gets back and this is, I don’t want to take too much time on the store, but it is fascinating to me. He said, watch this. I’m about to get free drinks from the flight attendants.
And I was like, okay, whatever. Um, so he. them chocolate, he told me earlier. And so he comes back, sure enough, he gets multiple free alcoholic beverages. The guy starts getting a little loose in his talk. And I finally felt comfortable enough to say, why are you acting like, like, what is it in your life that is causing you to show up this way?
And he did, he started spilling his guts about his childhood abuse. His childhood traumas. He talked about when he used to try to escape to his basement and go organize his whole like set of toys. And as a teenager, organize his cars and motorcycles. And then as a physician organize all the bigger and better toys of his life.
And I literally just said to him, you don’t have to be this way. You can have a different life. He was a little bit too, gone to be able to receive my advice, but Dan, when we got off that plane, he said, will you just hold my hand? Will you just touch me? Even if you won’t go to the bathroom, will you hold my hand?
Like, no, get off of this plane. Get out of here. But yeah, there’s something about me. I don’t know. People just open up and tell me the crazy stuff. He’s
Dan: What’s crazy to me, hearing that story, is here’s a man who’s, this is sexual harassment, and
Rhonda: physician and he’s very open about how educated he is and smart. Anyway. Yeah. All
Dan: yes, you’re being sexually harassed, yet. You totally like put on your life coaching brain and like do these kung fu moves to totally stay calm and cool and collected through it and he ends up getting a coaching session from you out of the whole thing.
Rhonda: So funny, you know, I didn’t really feel threatened by him probably because we were in a plane a public place and there were people nearby But that is something that my brain through my job has learned to do I don’t look at the behaviors on the surface level the way [00:10:00] I used to When I hear things like that my brain automatically goes to hmm.
I wonder what caused this what’s going on beneath the surface What’s in your background? What’s your patterns? Right, which I think is what we’re going to talk about today. So i’m excited for
Dan: Right, right, right. Great. What I want to talk about today is this pattern I see in some of my coaching. So, the, vignette I want to use to paint the picture of our discussion is this. There’s a, husband and wife, he is the higher desire spouse for sex in their marriage. She’s the lower desire spouse. He’s very successful in his work. He’s really good at running companies, multiple companies. He’s got teams of managers under him, assistants and everything. He’s really talented with entrepreneurship and leadership. And one of the qualities that makes him great is he’s really a go getter. And he knows how to not take no for an answer.
He knows how to push through challenges and part of what drives him is just the mere fact that there is a challenge just because it’s a challenge he wants to overcome and conquer those things. In his intimate life with his wife, they’re really struggling. He wants sex a lot. She doesn’t. However, when they do have sex, she says it’s a great experience for her.
It’s pleasurable. she has orgasms and, and multiple orgasms. So like from a, high level view, she’s having a good time. Yet his biggest frustration is of the two of them. He’s always thinking about sex. She says, I never think about sex. He wants to be pursued by her. And for her, sex is always an afterthought. And it’s come to a breaking point in their relationship where he wants to be wanted so badly. And she’s really struggling to kind of get there in their marriage relationship. Any thoughts you have on that general scenario?
Rhonda: I have a lot of thoughts. I jotted down a few things, but number one, somebody like this shows up on a consult call with me and they feel like they’re the only ones they’re like, no, no, no, no. Ronnie, you don’t understand. I don’t even have to work for money anymore. You don’t understand. I manage all these things.
Like I’m good at rejection. I, I’m not like you would think, right? Like they really want me to know, like, no, this is different. I see this dynamic. I don’t want to say the individual circumstances aren’t different. They are. But I see this dynamic repeatedly in my work. And here are a few reasons why I think this type of couple marries each other.
Okay, I call my clients high achievers. So it’s a double edged sword, really, and you alluded to a little bit, so let’s just call it out a little bit more overtly. Your greatest strength can sometimes be your greatest weakness if you overuse it. So these high achievers, they’re so good at seeing a goal.
Figuring it out, working hard. Sometimes they will, and I’m going to use the word manipulate, and I don’t mean that in a negative tone. It’s just like, they know how to manipulate the factors, right? That could be a really good thing to make it work in their favor, to produce the outcome that they think they want.
That’s beautiful. It’s a skillset that I sometimes wish I had more of. There’s nothing wrong with that. When we get into trouble with that is when we try to pretend relationships. Work the same as businesses, companies, and finances.
Dan: Right, especially intimate relationships.
Rhonda: Exactly, exactly. You can’t do it. But the brain and these high achievers has been conditioned for so long and got the reward and pay off for so long of seeing a goal doubling down, working hard and getting it, that they super impose that skillset onto their intimate relationships where it doesn’t work.
And then they keep trying and they keep trying. It creates some unhealthy patterns. And they’re exhausted, their partner is exhausted and it doesn’t work. And so then it’s almost like they’re both just over there. Like, what else do we do? Ready to give up much like it sounds like what you’re saying.
Dan: You’re right, right. So in this vignette with this couple, this, you know, chasm in their sexual desire leads to some of the biggest fights that they’ve ever had in their marriage. And they can get along and manage well when it comes to finances and parenting and vacationing and all the other major aspects of the relationship.
Yeah. I believe we always co create the marriage dynamic we’re in, we always participate in it. So, there could be real reasons that he is participating in creating a low desire wife. In this type of a scenario, what are some angles that we can look at it? How, they are both contributing to this kind of a dynamic in the relationship.
Rhonda: I love that you said different angles, because I think some of these are going to apply to some of your listeners and some of them won’t. So anything we say today, see if it fits for you. If it doesn’t resonate, then maybe ask your partner if they feel it right. Or [00:15:00] toss it. So I want to start with that.
Number one. This high desire partner when he feels like he’s got everything he wants except this Deep physical intimacy or except being desired by his partner It almost becomes like this neediness on his end Like he wants so bad to solve it and he gets in that scarcity mode And here’s something I want everybody to start thinking about when you’re needy with something Your partner’s desire if they have it or whatever they bring to accommodate that neediness You Well, always feel like obligation, like just by definition, think about this need is fulfilled with obligation.
And then that sets both up for some trouble.
Dan: Right. Right. in what ways is he coming across as needy? In what ways is she, you know, meeting that neediness with obligation?
Rhonda: Okay. So for each couple, this is going to look a little bit different. So we’re going to talk very generally here. Many of my clients though, they have learned to use sex to regulate their emotions. So a lot of men will say, it’s not that we’re not having any sex and even in this scenario It’s like no when we do have sex It’s really great and I’ll often say to them then sex isn’t the solution and they’re like no no no But it is you don’t understand but if we’re using sex to regulate our emotions We’re not necessarily using it to show and receive love.
And that’s what I think most of us are really craving to be seen, to be accepted, to be loved in this most vulnerable way. But when we’re using it as an emotional regulation tool, it’s sort of sabotages that greater desire and need that most of us have.
Dan: I love that because I was reading about a recent study done on outcomes of traditional American sex therapy. So these are couples that go to a sex therapist to help work through sexual issues. And two years later, they survey these people, if there’s any improvement in their sex lives. And it’s shocking that there’s no improvement, generally speaking, in people’s sex lives two years later,
Marker
Dan: after they’ve been to sex therapy.
There may have been an increase in frequency, especially right after therapy, but then, after two years, they go back to their normal patterns. And you dig a little deeper, Because when you sit in a sex therapist’s office like this couple, if they went to a traditional sex therapist, they’re going to address sexual issues only, right?
Like, ability to orgasm and dysfunction and what makes you more interested. Well, here, have some pornographic films or you should masturbate more. Like, those kind of advice is very typical for traditional sex therapy. But their issue isn’t about sexual concerns. It’s actually an intimacy issue. It’s so you’re addressing the wrong kind of a problem in these kinds of issues.
So it was enlightening to me to see if you want real outcomes, you got to look at intimacy, the, the underlying dynamic and the meanings that play in the interaction. So this husband is seeking that emotional comfort, that, validation, through sex and, demands it, wants it. And it’s just so hard. to give that when that’s an obligation.
Rhonda: That’s a fascinating study and I’ll tell you something that I tell almost every man who comes on a consult call with me. Yeah. I tell him, I’m almost positive that what you’re looking for is not about sex. And it’s okay if you don’t fully believe that, but if you’re not at least open to the idea that this isn’t about sex.
I’m not a good fit to work with you. Like I literally don’t even want to work with somebody who’s not willing to explore that idea. Now I say almost positive because there are physiological issues. There are some trauma issues, which even still is an emotional issue, but like sexual trauma and things like that.
There are some issues that are different than what I teach, but most of the time It’s what you said. It’s an emotional connection regulation issue. And I want to speak to what you asked me to. We kind of overlooked this, but what happens on the wife or the partner side of this when it gets
Dan: yeah,
Rhonda: when they’re in this obligation mode, like, okay, he’s needy.
I know if I say no, then he’s going to be grumpy. There will be emotional consequences. Like he will make sure we all know he’s unhappy. Then she starts to feel like I can’t trust myself. Like do I really desire him or do I just want him to not be Angry and frustrated with me or grumpy with the kids, right?
And I have many wives after their husbands work with me for about a year or so or less It doesn’t take that long. I just have a lot of clients who like the um emotional accountability they get with me But anyway, their wives will come in and get on a call and say oh my gosh, he’s changed so much But ronda, I still don’t trust my body You Even though I know he’s changed, [00:20:00] my body still has a physical, visceral response to that neediness and obligation.
And so then the wives often have to work through their own emotional patterns and all that was created for them when they felt like they were in this obligation mode and they were scared to not help him regulate his emotions with sex. It gets really tricky on both sides and that’s why the pattern gets perpetuated.
And I want to speak to what you said. You said your client was like, no, when we have sex, it’s great. It’s pleasurable. And I’ll just say physically pleasurable is not the same as emotionally fulfilling. And so I would even, if I were working with this couple, I would even pull that apart because we think physical pleasure is quote success.
And in some ways it is, it makes sex a lot better, obviously, obviously. But that’s still not working on the emotional pattern of obligation, neediness, trusting oneself in desire.
Dan: that’s good. So a lot of the times these patterns have been going on so long, it’s like driving to work. I don’t think about my commute. Like I get in the car and I can think about other things. And next thing I know I’m at my office, right? It’s become so automatic. How do you then disassociate sex from validation? How do you separate that when it’s been so integral to the way you’ve been operating?
Rhonda: That’s a good question, and I’m gonna dance around it just a little if I can take some permissions here. I don’t know if we have to fully disassociate it. I don’t think validation is necessarily a bad thing. And I think you think this way, too. I believe I’ve heard you in discussion groups. Validation isn’t necessarily bad.
I think of it more this way. When we have to have that validation to regulate our mood and emotions all the time, that’s the way I might say it. And the way that we stop doing that is we learn how to tolerate our emotions in our body. You’ve worked with me a little bit on some things like this and it’s so hard for me.
When I start to tap in and connect to the parts of me that need the validation, that’s more helpful than saying, I don’t need the validation. Does that make sense? Ask me more questions about that. I think
Dan: hundred percent agreed. Rhonda. That’s great. That’s great. And I think some people do take the message. Wait. The validation is bad.
Then they’ll like, you know, the pendulum swings the opposite way. They distance themselves from anything that might be self validating,
but that’s not what we’re talking about here.
It’s when you rely on something external to you to regulate your own emotions, you then become dependent on it. And we want to. That to become more emotionally mature is to be more emotionally self reliant, kind of be able to stand on your own two feet emotionally in it, regardless of what someone else is doing or not doing, because you don’t have control over other people.
Rhonda: Yes. And the issue with these achievers sometimes again, take or leave whatever I’m saying that resonates and doesn’t for your listeners. But with these achievers, sometimes they have learned that they can work really hard and get the validation. And so before they even met their wife, that pattern was being perpetuated, right?
And it’s almost like they’ve learned that they don’t have to feel those internal emotions because they can do so much externally in their world. And so. That’s alive and burning inside of them and other areas of their lives. And like I said before, then they’ll superimpose that pattern or that skillset even over here in the marriage.
And so I think that’s why they come by it honestly is because they have learned that validation feels really good and they’re really good at getting it. And it’s almost like they’re surprised. When it doesn’t work the same way. Sometimes I use the word entitled. I’ll be like, you’re not entitled to getting that feel good everywhere in your life.
And they’re like, no, no, no, I’m not entitled. I work really hard for what I’ve got. And I say, I know you worked your butt off harder than most people I know, but it’s like their brain has created this connection, hard work. I freaking am going to get what I want. And that’s what we’re talking about.
Doesn’t work in sex.
Dan: it doesn’t work in relationships. No. Although you do work hard on your relationship because you care about the other person. I mean, any good relationship requires sacrifice on both ends, but how much sex you got out of it. It shouldn’t be the sole measuring stick for your efforts and contribution to the marriage,
Rhonda: That’s a good point.
Dan: you’re working with two people here with, with very different backgrounds, different ideas, very different people.
Rhonda: And I’ll clarify when I mean working externally to get the result. The way I look at it is very different than working internally. Now, if you’re working really hard on yourself internally, I have seen a very high yield of intimacy. Self intimacy first to lay the foundation of relational intimacy, to lay the foundation of physical intimacy.
I have seen it work that way.[00:25:00]
Dan: Great. Speaking of internal work, I’ve heard you use this term before the triad of mastery in the brain. Can you speak on that for a little bit?
Rhonda: Yeah, I want to tread lightly here because I’m not a neuroscientist that’s above my pay grade And I I know probably just enough to be dangerous so that there’s the disclaimer So I’ll maybe speak in terms that are a little bit more familiar to me but we all have this part of our brain and it kind of Some people might even talk about this part of the brain that gets activated by our inner child And I’m gonna call it like the safety brain our amygdala, we all have it.
It, it stores these highly emotional moments in our lives. And especially if those highly emotional situations were repeated over time, that’s going to be like stuck in the amygdala and we want it to be, that’s so we don’t walk out in front of cars, that’s so we don’t like pet bears at the zoo or whatever, um,
Dan: Uh huh.
Rhonda: is like scanning for danger all the time.
It’s like, don’t get near that. So if we even smell rejection in our partner, like we get a little bit nervous to initiate, you know, it’s like, Oh, that hurts. Don’t go near it. And so our inner child is really protected by this part of the safety brain, because the inner child, when we were developing our brain is like, we can’t feed ourselves.
We can’t clothe ourselves. We need somebody else for shelter, all those things. And so it really learns how to scan for safety and please the people around us. So
Dan: a survival mechanism.
Rhonda: a hundred percent. So
Dan: Right. Uh huh.
Rhonda: We have the safety brain and then we have what I might call our inner teenager instead of our inner
Dan: Okay.
Rhonda: but it’s more like the excitement dopamine brain, right?
And it learns like, wait, I’m kind of growing into my body and I’m probably smarter than these caregivers, right? That’s what our teenage brain thinks anyway. And it’s like seeking these new things and these excitement things. And sometimes that teenager will like, just come out and protect the inner child.
So let me give you an example of that. Let’s say there’s this inner child that doesn’t feel super safe at home for whatever reason. They grow into their body. They grow into their intelligence a little bit more, but maybe not quite their prefrontal cortex and their wisdom. Right. And they’ll be like, screw everybody here.
I’m going to fight back. Right. And they might like. Work really hard and get a paper route to provide the Nike tennis shoes that they want, or they might like, like bulk up to be able to protect against the bully or whatever. But it’s like, they’re coming in with this like dopamine hit of, I’m going to do what I want.
And it’s going to feel really good. And it also protects that inner child, right?
Dan: Right.
Rhonda: It’s also very adaptive. But these two, the inner child, the safety brain and the teenage inner teenager, or this dopamine excitement brain, they still are not what we want running the adult show, the adult relationships.
Dan: Right.
Rhonda: Okay. So we think about what’s this mastery brain or this integrated connection brain. That’s when this prefrontal cortex can come online and we can say, I see you inner child. I see you safety brain. Like sex feels really threatening because what, like. We are asking somebody to take care of us in a way that we can’t take care of ourselves, and that feels really scary.
And then, I see you teenage brain or dopamine brain, like, please give us the payoff so we can just settle down and feel okay a little bit, right? And we’ll like, work really hard and say, desire me, want me, right? And that teenage brain is like, seeking that excitement and that validation. If we can connect with this prefrontal cortex and this higher level thinking, like, I see why this is happening, and I see why I tend to have these urges and to do it this way.
How do I want to bring in my adult resources and handle this? Can I be knowable? Can I be really intimate and knowable and, and show my inner child, show my inner teenager? Can I be very intimate? partner without just seeking like that sexual validation. And that’s hard.
Dan: Yeah, it is hard, especially when it’s, it’s not false to want sex. Like what I mean is there’s truth behind good sex, good sexual connection. It’s great for a marriage, right? Like on face value, sex does so much good for the relationship. It does good for, you know, physical health. Like people can make long lists of all the benefits of a good sex life yet.
And when we don’t. Have it like we think we do. It’s easy to like, either it’s that child brain or that teenage brain easily, showing, you know, that part of yourself kind of wanting to run the show.
Rhonda: Yeah. And they’re not bad. Like we both said, you know, these parts of our brain, they just are, I have them, you have them, we all have them. But when we can like integrate and bring all of that online with a lot of compassion and understanding, that’s where we get a lot more solid in who we are. And, and we can make a bid for connection and know that we’re going to be okay, that we can take care of that teenage self or that inner child, that we can self soothe.
That we can regulate our own emotions. Is it still going to suck? Yeah. [00:30:00] No matter how evolved we get, rejection is going to suck. And, and that’s normal. Can we approach this higher level intimacy with higher level maturity with mind body integration?
Dan: Yeah. This is really salient for me because this happened to me recently in a, you know, profound way, with a friend’s group involving one of our kids, it was just created a situation that where there is with some friends all of a sudden some really bad feelings between us and it was not our choosing, we didn’t want this to happen, and I could feel all of those different parts of me come up, I felt like the people pleaser in me, like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
This isn’t what it’s like. You know, you have it wrong. And then there’s the protector in me that’s like, screw them. Like, I don’t get pushed around. Of course. Like they don’t know any better. Well, we know what’s up. And then I could just feel all these different parts coming online. As we navigate this really difficult emotional challenge that we’re going through. And then there’s also different layers too, because it not only involves me, involves our child, but also involves the relationship between my wife because my wife takes, takes it a different way. And I freak out because wait, are we on the same page anymore? Like what happened? And then what does this mean for our relationship?
So yes, it just comes up in so many different ways. And I remember, taking care of some things and it was in the afternoon, it was hot, sweaty. I went and just had a shower to clean up and something about that shower was so soothing at bringing on that prefrontal cortex brain in that moment. And I could just like calm all of those different parts down and just really think through. No, this is kind of what’s happening. This is who I want to be. This is who I choose to be in this. And I walked out of that shower, just feeling so much more peace and calm about the situation. And regardless of how other people are going to choose to be or not to be, I, had my parts more organized, I guess.
I had more self leadership than that. And so I recommend showers. Yes.
Rhonda: I love that story. If, if it’s okay, I’ll share a story that relates to, I have a really close friend. She happens to be the higher desire partner in her marriage. And she was talking about her and her husband had made this plan. There was this specific thing that, you know, they were going to try. And for whatever reason, at this point, she just felt like she could not do it.
And she really wanted to enjoy it and be in the moment with it. And so she said, you know, we’re out to dinner, looking at each other across the table, and I wanted to bring it up, but wasn’t sure how it would go. Cause she’s a higher desired partner. And so she just said like, Hey. I know we planned this thing tonight.
I really want to do it. Would it be okay if we put it on the calendar for like three days away? And, he just said to her like, well, I’m not sure I’ll have to play that by year because I have X, Y, and Z that day. And she said, everything inside of her felt so rejected. She’s the one saying, let’s push this out.
She, I’m saying, I don’t feel like, but when he said, I’ll play it by ear, Was like she felt it all come up and apparently and and they’ve been doing some work together No and he noticed that and he was like I feel like something I just said has way more to do with The context in your head than the words I said and she said I was able to take a deep breath Really tap into myself of what’s going on here for me, and she said, I finally was able to get to the place where I could tell him there are parts of me that feel really afraid that this isn’t as important to you as it is to me, and it won’t be prioritized.
If I don’t do it now, it won’t happen. It was like, I don’t trust that this is going to come back around. I don’t trust you to value it the way I do. It was really cool because she was like, I was finally able to tap into all these parts of me without letting them spew out of my mouth and anger or rejection or like emotional consequence and punishment.
And, you know, if we saw this on a rom com, if we saw this interaction, we’d just be like, whatever. It will be so forgettable. It would be like the least interesting thing of the whole movie. But the work you and I do, it’s like, oh my gosh, these micro moments that you can do that, what you said, like really notice what they’ve got going on, what I’ve got going on.
It’s so powerful. And I think these micro moments change marriages. They change relationships. And I don’t think we can overstate how important noticing your emotions and your parts are and learning how to articulate and be known instead of react From the emotions. Yeah.
Dan: they were able to be honest in it instead of just when he noticed that what he said may have bothered her. I could just imagine it’d be so easy just to sweep it under the rug and move on with the evening. But yet he paused and said, [00:35:00] let’s talk about this.
Rhonda: I mean, I could see being defensive as being very justifiable, right? People will be like, of course you have every right to be defensive about that. Like that was her, not you. But when you’re emotionally in tune and bringing those parts of the brain and those parts of safety and the doping and excitement, I mean, we could point each of those parts out in that story if, if that feels important, but like when you can see those parts and bring them online.
And use your resources and then articulate that. That is insanely powerful.
Dan: That’s good. Great. Great. So let’s come back full circle with the vignette of this, uh, hypothetical couple, um, with the high achieving husband and, and the wife with sexual, differences. Do you want to role play this as an example of how a possible conversation can go that, you know, we’re bringing online that adult brain in that conversation?
Rhonda: Yeah, I’ll give it my best shot.
Dan: All right, me too. We’ll see where this goes. We haven’t scripted this or anything. So we’re both just off the cuff here
Rhonda: Wing it.
Dan: all right, so You’ll be Rhonda. I’ll be Dan
Rhonda: I’ll be the wife, isn’t that right?
Dan: Yeah, you’re the wife, I’m the husband. So, we’re going to do the more mature version for, for sake of time, but it’d be like, I really hate it when it feels like I’m the only one interested in building a sexual relationship with you.
Rhonda: When I think about our sexual relationship, it just makes me feel uncomfortable. And I think that I’ve kind of felt swallowed up in your idea of the sexual relationship. And I just don’t even know how to approach it, honestly.
Dan: Let me ask you a question that’s really hard for me to ask, but I want an honest, honest answer. Can you help me better understand what is it like being married to me, especially around sex?
Rhonda: I think for a long time I felt like sex is the only thing you care about. It feels like the other things I bring to the marriage are unimportant and that’s been really hard for me. I don’t like the idea that I’m just here to give you what you want. It feels like you don’t want to see or accept all the parts of me.
And at times that’s made me feel really small. I’m trying to step out of that, but I almost find myself not trusting your motives when you talk about sex or other things of intimacy.
Dan: it hurts for me to hear that, but I mean, you know, we’re multimillionaires, so I feel like I can afford, we can hire a private chef for our family. I can hire a daycare. we can hire laundry service. Like there’s everything that, you know, stereotypical housewife would do. We can afford all of that. But the only thing I can’t get is the sex. It’s like the one thing in life that I can’t get and, it’s easy for me to dismiss. All your other contributions. Cause I feel like I can. out contribute those things because of our earning power.
Rhonda: Yeah, I know. Sometimes I feel like I don’t validate even your earning and the beautiful life that you’ve provided for us. It’s not that I don’t appreciate that, but I think I feel similarly emotionally. Just like you, we can pay for everything else, but I can’t pay for you to love me. I can’t pay for you to care about what’s going on inside of me.
And so in some ways I can understand what you’re saying because I feel it too. I crave it. I would give all of our money away if I could feel I mattered to you, not just sex.
Dan: So, I tell myself that, well, of course I care about you because I provide for you, and I provide for our kids, and you have a great life. You can go to the gym every day, you can do all your hobbies that you want to do. You can go on trips whenever you want to, to go see extended family. I know we live far away from family, but because of our earning power, it’s, it’s not been an issue, but now I’m starting to see if I, if I understand you right, I guess what you’re saying is among all those things, you’re saying you don’t feel I’m invested in you as a person. I’m only interested in what I can get out of you.
Rhonda: Maybe I do think you love me. But I also often feel really lonely in this beautiful life that we’ve created and you’ve provided in some ways. I think maybe the way I would say it is, I feel like it’s not that you’re not invested in me, but it’s hard for you to see me beyond sex. It’s hard for you to see beyond that desire that you physically.
Dan: Yeah, I, I think you’re spot on on that. Can you give me an example of how I can see you better beyond sex?
Rhonda: That’s a good question because I’m [00:40:00] starting at times to not even trust myself that I know. What that might look like. I can give it a stab. I think maybe at the end of the day, it would feel good if I just felt like you wanted to know me, that you wanted to know what I’ve been thinking about. You want to know what my interests are.
Maybe my imperfections, if I was able to be open and let those be seen without fear of judgment. I’m working on figuring that out.
Dan: and I think my desire, for you to pursue me sexually has been so dominant in my brain. It’s overshadows my ability to just calm down enough to have a conversation with you like that, because I. I. can just see myself now, like, you know, looking at my watch, like, are we done? Can we move on to sex yet?
Like, in that, I, maybe I, it’s too much. It’s getting in the way of me really knowing you.
Rhonda: Thank you for being honest. This, this is what I’m asking for that. What does it feel like for you when you’re craving me to pursue or desire you? Can you tell me, not just like that you want sex, but what’s your experience? What are your fears? what’s vulnerable in that for you?
Dan: I experience you as someone that likes to play small. Someone that wants to stay in the shadows, someone that’s happy to get along, to go, like go along to get along, but not someone that’s really like standing up for herself. And like, I’ve seen glimpses of you, you know, behave in those ways in certain contexts, like especially in parenting and your volunteer work and in the church and things like that. but you are so happy to be second place to me and not my equal. And I think that drives me crazy.
Rhonda: I think you’re right that I go along to get along and I haven’t stood up for myself. And the more I learn about this, I think I’ve done that because I’m afraid of the emotional consequences of this.
It’s really easy for me to understand when you’re not happy with something or when you wish that I would do it differently. We all know that, and it creates a tone in the house. And especially for me, I, it feels really unsafe to think about standing up for myself when it’s not what you want from me.
That’s hard.
Dan: Oh, so I’m creating a marriage. I’m co creating this relationship. I’m seeing now where, it’s partially my fault why you have the aspects of things I dislike. It’s because if I really truly let go and let you be your own person, I’m afraid it won’t mean what I want and I’d be threatened by that. And then we’re going to have another fight again. And, I can see why it’s a lot easier for you to, Stay small. Tell me what I want to hear in the moment. and we never really address our problems. I need to work on that.
Rhonda: It’s super scary for me to think about you being unhappy with my response. And in some ways, that’s why I participated in going along to get along for so long. I realize that I’ve participated in that way and it hasn’t led to a healthy dynamic for either of us, but it’s really scary to think about not doing that anymore.
And it’s also scary to think about learning to trust myself because it’s almost like my brain thinks through the lens of what makes you happy, not what makes me happy. And I, I’m having a hard time figuring that out. Even when you asked me that question, like, what do I wish you would see? I’m just not used to thinking in that way.
And that’s hard and scary and uncomfortable, but there’s a, distant glimpse that it could be freeing as well.
Dan: All right, time out. That was great, Rhonda. What do you think?
Rhonda: I saw you doing this. I’m like, Oh man,
Dan: I know it’s real.
Rhonda: Yeah, so good.
Dan: Even this, I know it’s a role play, but I still feel all the feels as we’re going through that.
Rhonda: Yeah,
Dan: I’ve been, maybe an aspect of me has been in this situation before and I know what it feels like.
Rhonda: absolutely. So many of us have, right? It’s pretty common or we wouldn’t be talking about
Dan: Yeah, exactly. Yet we don’t talk enough about it in constructive ways.
So thanks for role playing. And if you’re listening to this podcast, I hope it’s been really helpful for you to at least. Pick up on something to give you a tool or an idea of where to go. And if you need more guidance, there’s excellent people out there, like Ronda far and myself and my team that can help you through that.
Rhonda: Absolutely. Thanks for having me, Dan. This was a lot of fun. And I feel important to just say at the end of that role play, you, you mentioned it, we were playing the more mature versions of ourselves.
Dan: Yeah.
Rhonda: I think it’s important to realize when you come and you start to embody that more mature, that more solid sense [00:45:00] of self that can connect some of these parts.
It might really catch your partner off guard. They may not, they probably will not be able to show up in this way at first. And that’s actually really, really normal because you’ve been thinking about this for a long time. You’ve probably put in a lot more thought and effort and work, and it can be really disorienting at first for your partner to hear these things and to see you differently as much as they have wanted you to be a little bit different, right, and would welcome it.
It’s also very disorienting. So I’ll throw that out there too.
Dan: Great. Very good. Well, thank you. tell everyone where they can find you.
Rhonda: you can find me at Rhonda far. com. You can find me on Instagram at Rhonda far underscore coaching. And I have a podcast, the intimacy podcast for the million dollar man. You can also find me there.
Dan: All right. Very good. Thank you.
Rhonda: Thanks, Dan.
