Your full presence is one of the greatest gifts you can give another person. By being fully present, your mind is free from distractions. So you can truly be with the person you love in mind, body, and spirit, especially in your most precious intimate moments. And if you’re like me, I admit, this is an area I am trying to get better at. Mindfulness is a buzzword these days, but its roots are deep. I met Dr. Chelom Leavitt, PhD, an impressive woman. Her research is the link between mindfulness practice, which is the ability to be fully present, and sexual satisfaction in long-term married couples. The things I learned in this interview have changed the way I interact with others, especially Emily and my children, in profound ways. Now, before we dive into episode 44, I want to briefly mention that I want to encourage you and your spouse to join me in making sexy September AKA a Sextember for the month of September.

What this means for us is we take time in September to identify one or two things that are currently getting in the way of our intimacy, and we make a proactive plan to work on it. It doesn’t mean you have to have sex every day for the month, unless that’s what you both decide to do, but it just means working on common obstacles to intimacy such as, is it lack of time? Is it feeling tired and stressed? Is it kids? Is it bedroom boredom? Or whatever it might be. Anyway, more details are available on the Intimately Us app and check your inbox if you subscribe to our newsletter for details. And now for Dr. Chelom Leavitt!

Dan:

Dr. Chelom Leavitt. I am so excited to have you join the podcast today. Thank you for being here.

Dr. Chelom Leavitt:

It’s my pleasure, thank you!

Dan:

Now, you’re a pretty impressive lady, I got to say. You have a Juris doctorate and a PhD. So you’ve been a lawyer and now you’ve switched to research, you have nine children, and you’re bilingual. You grew up in the Ukraine and you split your time between Ukraine and the United States. You’re an incredibly powerful person!

Dr. Chelom Leavitt:

That’s kind of you. I don’t feel powerful, but I feel like some of the things that I’m doing are really important. So, thank you.

Dan:

I agree. Very important. Now, the main reason why I’m interested in having you on as a guest on the podcast is kind of for selfish reasons, because I have a hard time keeping my mind focused all the time during sex and knowing that you’ve done a lot of research in mindfulness and sex. I want to learn more about what your research is and also your journey and how you got here. What got you interested in this topic in the first place?

Dr. Chelom Leavitt:

And that’s a great question. I was actually a lawyer over in Eastern Europe and started noticing couples in a different way than I had before and realized that there were some particular challenges that couples in Eastern Europe were facing. And it just got me interested in how we develop relationships, how we strengthen or maintain relationships. And so when we moved back to the states, I ended up getting my master’s in marriage, family, and human development. Then because of the research I was doing, I went ahead and finished up with a PhD and focused on sex, and how mindfulness really improves that sexual experience.

Dan:

Mindfulness is kind of a buzzword these days, you have mindfulness apps, mindfulness meditation retreats, and all sorts of things. But combining that work in that science with sexuality, you’re probably one of the early pioneers in that. Wouldn’t you think?

Dr. Chelom Leavitt:

Yeah, you know, I was hearing a little bit about mindfulness while I was in my PhD program. And it just clicked with me that this has got to apply to sex, that this is oftentimes where people feel heightened anxiety, even if it’s positive anxiety like arousal. So then our minds get a little fuzzy and we start wandering off in other places rather than being able to focus on who we’re with and how our body is feeling and what we’re actually experiencing. So I did some research and I looked to see if anybody had looked at these two things combined, sexuality and mindfulness. There had been a little research done on just how general mindfulness might help somebody with sexual dysfunctions or other things like that, but nothing that specifically looked at how mindful you are during sex and how you can focus your attention and learn to improve those skills. So that’s what I began with, and it’s been a really fun journey. The thing that’s so nice about it is, like you, so many people when they hear that, they think that makes sense, but how do I do that?

Dan:

All right. So how did you do that research, did you do a lot of interviews? Did you start teaching classes? What’s that process like? How do you coach or help people through that?

Dr. Chelom Leavitt:

So it was kind of a two-part process. First of all, we looked at how could we even measure this? And so I started just talking to people about where they were at right now. And we did some survey work in three different countries in the U.S., in Turkey, and in Ukraine because I love Ukraine and there are also three very different cultures. So we wanted to see, how does this look for people, not just in the United States, but people all over the world. And what we found was that our measure boiled down to about seven questions and it really focused on two aspects, how aware I am of my own body and sensations during sex, and then how judgmental I am about my experience and about my partner. And so those two things, awareness and judgment seem to be really key in how we maintain mindfulness during sex.

And so then the next step was, can we teach this to people? And we found that indeed we can! We created a curriculum, and then we measured a number of different aspects of people, of couples’ relationships before this class, and then afterward. And in fact, we followed them in a subsequent study. We followed them for about eight months to see if these effects were long lasting, or if it just kind of gave a little boost right during the class and then petered out. What we found was that it had long lasting effects, that it helped people think differently about their relationship, about their sexual experience, about themselves, really. And so we’ve now taught a number of different groups with this curriculum on sexual mindfulness and have seen really positive results. And in fact, we even interviewed people afterwards so that they could give us feedback that maybe we weren’t asking the right questions. And what we found was that people were super excited about this. It was simple, but it was new to them and not something that you would just normally come up with on your own. Even if you’re just mindful in your regular life, you may not know how to transfer that to your sexual life.

Dan:

I see. So I want to know what’s in your curriculum. Can you give us today a little summary of that?

Dr. Chelom Leavitt:

Yeah, I can give you a few ideas about it. But really we take about three weeks to help people ease into this, to practice and then ask us questions. Because it’s different theoretically, right? From practice. We can talk about mindfulness all day long, but then when I go and sit and I meditate for a second, it’s frustrating when you quickly lose attention with how noisy our brains can be. And so it’s really important for us to give people a little scaffolding as they learn about it to kind of help coach them through some of the pitfalls that will naturally occur. So some of the things we talk about is actually counterintuitive to what our culture teaches today, and that is that we want to slow sex down. You know, in movies and media in articles, so often we’re talking about ramping sex up and speeding it up and quickly getting to orgasm or having orgasm as a goal that we’re driving towards. And what we really talk about is letting go of all those things, staying in the moment, when your partner, when your spouse touches you or hugs you can you slow down your thoughts and just be present in that moment? Notice the sensations that you feel as you just hold each other. As you look into each other’s eyes, as you kind of slow down that experience of intimacy. You know, we talk about intimacy as if it’s a euphemism for sex.

Dan:

Right? All the time

Dr. Chelom Leavitt:

We miss the point that intimacy is multifaceted. We have intellectual intimacy, emotional intimacy, physical intimacy which can but doesn’t have to mean sex. We can be intimate in a number of different ways. And so it’s important for us to understand that emotional intimacy, relational intimacy, intellectual intimacy, all kinds of things feed in to physical intimacy. If we’re doing things in a way that really strengthens and builds our relationship, most likely all of those things are going to come first. And then as we engage in a physical relationship, that’s a natural outgrowth of this intimacy that we’ve had in every other dimension of our life.

Dan:

It’s not so neatly compartmentalized, like a bento box, it all kind of blends together and helps feed and strengthen each other.

Dr. Chelom Leavitt:

Yeah. And I like to describe it as, you know, if I’m undressing myself emotionally for my husband, and we’re talking about things that I don’t tell other people, and maybe it’s pretty vulnerable for me to share whatever it is I’m sharing and he’s doing the same. And we’re trying to meet each other’s needs in being loving about what this new information is. As we do that, the natural outcropping of that is undressing physically and allowing ourselves to share this physical intimacy with each other. And then we notice a connection you can’t have if you’re just focused on the physical connection. If you’ve included the emotional and the intellectual and even the spiritual intimacy, and then we engage in physical intimacy, what people report is that there’s a meaning that comes from that physical connection that wasn’t there previously.

Dan:

I love that. And what you’re saying reminds me of an experience. Emily and I just got back Saturday from a marriage retreat, a couples retreat, with Dr. Corey Allan. There were about 30 couples around the conference room, and one of the exercises we did was we sat hip to hip facing each other. And for a few minutes, one was the giver and one was the receiver. Then we were supposed to touch each other, face, hair, shoulders, arms, etc. We’re in a public place, so nothing too intimate as far as touch goes. But while we touch, the giver was supposed to concentrate on things you cherish and adore about your spouse. And the receiver was to really focus their mind on what that touch was meaning. And it was very intimate! And then partway through, Dr. Allen said, okay, now if you’re the giver, I want you to now think about Monday and work and kids and chores you need to do, but still keep touching the same way you’re touching. But me as a receiver, it felt very different. Like just being aware of that, it’s the same touch, same things, but it’s almost as if the mind behind that touch, we can sense that and we can feel that. Is that kind of related to what you’re referring to here?

Dr. Chelom Leavitt:

It absolutely is. In fact, we do a similar sort of exercise to make that very point that when we’re distracted we may even be engaging in the same physical touch, but it’s missing something. And that’s part of mindfulness. That we can slow down and focus on this person. We give them our full presence. We’re not distracted with work on Monday. We’re actually thinking about what it is that my relationship with this person means right now.

Dan:

How do you hold your attention longer? Is that like a muscle you can strengthen?

Dr. Chelom Leavitt:

Yeah. In fact, that’s exactly how people describe it, that learning to be mindful is a muscle to restrengthen. Like if I think about being mindful in my everyday life can I eat mindfully? You know, am I paying attention to the texture and the taste of the food and am I really savoring that? Or when I’m with my child and I give them my full attention and really listen to not only what they’re saying, but who they are and what this must mean for them to be talking to me about whatever it is they’re talking to me about. And so as we take 10 minutes a day and just meditate, clear our mind and just focus on our breath. It’s interesting because when we take our first breath as a newborn baby, we celebrate that that’s our birthday. That’s a beautiful day and marks the beginning of our life. And then when we take our last breath, that designates the end of our life. And we celebrate people’s lives as they pass, but it’s all those breaths in-between that we kind of ignore. We don’t really understand that those breaths are also important. As I take a breath, can I really connect with my own body? Can I really give space to feel and think what it is I might feel and think in that moment? And so, as we transfer that, we practice it outside of sex, because once we’re engaged in sex, we know we have heightened arousal, heightened anxiety. And so sometimes it’s much more difficult to stay focused and to stay mindful.

Dan:

Especially since sex is usually very anxious or anxiety inducing.

Dr. Chelom Leavitt:

Yeah, and it’s interesting. Well, I’ll get into that in a minute. We know that difference between men and women and how they experience the anxiety of sex. So, the goal is to practice being mindful outside of sex, so that we get a pretty good foundation. We understand the skills we can continue to improve in this 10 minutes a day. We know, for some reason, 10 minutes is the dosage that seems to help people improve anything less than that. So we encourage people to start meditating, and there are a lot of different ways to meditate. You don’t have to sit on your butt and be silent. You can walk, you can run, you can sing songs. There’s lots of ways to meditate. Just do that for 10 minutes a day.

Dan:

Just to be clear, I want to know what am I doing for those 10 minutes?

Dr. Chelom Leavitt:

So that’s a good question. You can either go through a guided meditation, I have a few that I really love, and I’ll share those with you, but you can even just look up 10 minute guided meditation on YouTube. There are thousands and most of them are really good. So what you’re doing is you’re clearing your mind as much as you can, and you’re kind of centering all of your presence on your breath. Just pay attention to your breath and let everything else go. It’s really just giving your mind a break. Even when we’re sleeping, our mind is working. And so it’s really important for us to learn to skillfully let our mind relax. People who can do that have better control over their mind in times where their mind needs to be engaged.

And so really that’s the beginning of building that muscle that you’re talking about. So just start trying to meditate 10 minutes a day. Doesn’t have to be long, 10 minutes is great, I rarely go longer than a 10 minute meditation unless I’m walking or running and then I might do it longer. Just because I like the exercise too. So people can start to build that skill, build that muscle, and then we take it into the realm of sex. So now when I start to engage in a sexual encounter with my partner can I slow that down right at the get-go, because too often we’re trying to heighten arousal really quickly because the goal seems to be orgasm for so many people and get there quick, which is interesting. Why are we rushing through such a pleasant experience?

Dan:

Right. And I hear from a lot of men, they get frustrated when it takes more than 20 minutes for her to come.

Dr. Chelom Leavitt:

Right. And so we do have to give space. We have to give enough time for that sexual encounter to allow it to unfold however it is going to unfold. Set aside an hour and then just connect with each other through holding each other, just hugging. And in fact I don’t know if you’ve ever read any of Dr. David Schnarch’s work, but he calls it heads on pillows. Where people are lying next to each other with their head on the pillow, just looking, just gazing into each other’s eyes. And at that point, you can just focus on your breath and just be present with your partner. And so that’s one activity that we talk about  in helping couples kind of slowdown that sexual experience, be present with each other. And then once they’ve done that for a while, touch, and see if you can really touch like you were describing in the activity you just did this weekend [at the retreat].

If you can really focus on what it feels like to touch someone or to be touched, what is that sensation? Maybe there’s some irritation with some types of touch. Maybe some people don’t like being touched lightly, or they don’t like a lot of pressure or once it gets repetitive, that’s annoying. And so you have to be able to describe that to your partner and say, I really like how you’re touching me right now. Or I don’t like when it becomes repetitive like that, it somehow irritates me. And we know, especially for women, irritation can be part of what they have to describe in their sexual experience. Some sort of movement or touch can actually be too much, they may have a heightened sensitivity to that sort of sensation. And so too much of it is actually annoying after a while, and it’s important to be able to talk about that.

Dan:

And then as you’ve done this research in other countries and cultures and I’m sure love making might look differently culturally, but the concept still applies. What are the other goals or the benefits you get out of this kind of more slower approach towards sex?

Dr. Chelom Leavitt:

Well, first of all we would probably say, don’t have a goal in sex. Just enjoy whatever time you have with each other. And as you feel more arousal, which you’re bound to feel as you’re present with each other, as you feel more arousal, orgasm will come when it comes. What’s interesting, is we just published an article in the Journal of Sexual Medicine and it shows that women and men who are more sexually mindful actually have more consistent orgasms and feel more sexual satisfaction. And so it’s really important for us to understand. We’re not saying that you’re not going to feel pleasure and orgasm and arousal. In fact, you’re going to feel it in an abundance. But it’s when we take the pressure off of getting to orgasm, that we actually can enjoy all of the little steps that take us to orgasm instead of rushing right by them thinking I’ve got to get to orgasm to satisfy my partner. And then we miss so much of the connection and joy and pleasure that comes from all of the little moments that take us to orgasm.

Dan:

Got it. I love that. You mentioned earlier about anxiety and you said you could touch on that a bit. Can you talk on that?

Dr. Chelom Leavitt:

It’s interesting because sexual mindfulness really consistently seems to have greater benefits for women than men.

Dan:

Oh, why is that?

Dr. Chelom Leavitt:

So, we’ve thought about that. Part of the reason is that men are more sexually mindful to begin with. Men are very good at compartmentalizing their lives and so that works really well in sex. Women, their lives are a little more integrated, right? What they have to do for the PTA blends in with when they’re buying groceries and when they’re talking to a child and when they’re having sex. And that’s unfortunate for women, women could learn a little bit from men by learning to compartmentalize, particularly their sexual experience. Just kind of block everything else out, take a minute, let go of all the noise that’s going on in their head and just tune in to their body, the sensations that they’re feeling.

Another problem that women have to face, and we talk about this in my curriculum, is that women and research has shown this over and over that when women think about what is a successful sexual encounter, most often women are thinking about whether or not their partner had a good experience. They’re not thinking about what they experienced. So women are very other focused, which again is such a great quality, but in sex, you have to be a little self-focused too. So that you can tune in to what’s happening to your body and then share that with your spouse. So we see that women struggle with more anxiety and are a little disconnected from their body. Some research has shown that women will report that they’re not feeling arousal when in reality, their body is starting to lubricate. They’re starting to have more blood flow.

And so for some reason, there’s a disconnect between what they register mentally and what their body is actually experiencing.

Dan:

Is that called non concordance?

Dr. Chelom Leavitt:

Yes. And so sexual mindfulness helps remove that and create more concordance. More connection between what they actually realize about their body and what their body is feeling . That’s been shown in a number of different studies with lots of different samples of women a number of different ages. And so it’s important for women to understand that it’s okay to take some time for yourself to really connect with your body, to slow down this sexual process so that you’re feeling the right amount of arousal. And you’re connecting with that arousal. Then women are going to have a much better sexual experience.

Dan:

Does it help to do more like take turns, being a giver and a receiver, if this is something you’re trying to work on in your marriage?

Dr. Chelom Leavitt:

Yeah, that might be a nice way to approach it. I think most often what we need to do is both take a minute at the beginning of your sexual interaction and just make sure you’re grounded in your own body. Just give yourself a little time to connect with your breath and to slow down your mind, and then to start to see if you can then kind of tune into your partner. So once you’re then touching, can you still maintain that centered presence in yourself, but then include your partner with that?

Dan:

Got it. I just had a question. A lot of focus on mindfulness seems to be on your breath, is that because that’s the one part of our body that we have both full conscious control of and unconscious control of what the sympathetic and parasympathetic? So it kind of brings us to an alignment. Is that why the focus on the breath is helpful?

Dr. Chelom Leavitt:

I think that’s part of it. I think that it gives us a place to focus and that place is constant. If I’m focused maybe on my stomach or my brain, which is mostly where most of us are focused. It’s interesting though, I’ll tell you about this little piece of research. People accuse men of thinking about sex every so often, very, very regularly. And it’s actually true. We see that in research, that men do think about sex more often than women do, but men also think about being hungry more than women do and being thirsty more than women do. So what that tells us is that men are actually just a little more connected with their body. Now, some of this has been socialized. Women from very young ages have been taught to be other focused, to be focused outside of their body. Men or little boys have, have been allowed to be a little more connected with their bodies. And so part of it is that we’ve been socialized to this way, and so we have to overcome that and breath is just this one constant that all of us experience. Every six seconds we breathe in and we breathe out. And so that just gives us a nice anchor to connect with our body.

Dan:

What if you are really into wanting to be more mindful and our spouse isn’t?

Dr. Chelom Leavitt:

That’s a really good question. In fact, we’re doing some research on that right now. What we know is that mindfulness is really an internal process. So it’s not something that you have to have partner buy-in. Would it be helpful to have partner buy-in? Yes, we know that our partners mindfulness actually impacts us too. However, that doesn’t mean it prohibits us from being more mindful and having all the benefits of being mindful in general, and then also sexually mindful. We have seen that people, individuals who are mindful, despite how their partner is, report these benefits of more sexual satisfaction, more consistent orgasms and more relational satisfaction as well.

Dan:

If your partner is really goal oriented in sex, wants just to get to orgasm, and you’re like, I want to slow things down, you can still experience a good mindfully connecting sexual experience. It can be unilateral. It doesn’t have to be two way.

Dr. Chelom Leavitt:

Yeah, it can absolutely be unilateral. But if it is the woman who is wanting to slow things down, and the man is kind of constantly speeding things up that may create some problems with the environment because women we know need longer a longer time to feel arousal, at least enough arousal, that will help her over that orgasm threshold. So I think in a situation like that, if the man were less mindful and the woman were more mindful, they may need to negotiate. We need to at least give me enough time so that I can feel enough arousal to hit orgasm or at least to feel like I felt enough connection and arousal that I’m satisfied.

Dan:

And you can probably start that work prior to your encounter too, earlier in the day or whatever.

Dr. Chelom Leavitt:

Yeah, absolutely. In fact, there’s the old saying that says “good sex at nine o’clock at night, starts at two o’clock in the afternoon”. So it’s, the playful banter, it’s the connecting with each other. It’s the connecting with yourself and making sure you yourself are ready for that kind of connection with each other.

Dan:

Very good. It is so fun to talk to a PhD and a sex expert at the same time. I want to know, what are your black belt sex tips? This is for a couple where things are good and they want to take things better. They’ve listened to this, they’re doing the mindfulness more practice so that they’re more present with each other. What other tips do you have to take sex from where it is to even better?

Dr. Chelom Leavitt:

I like that question. Almost every single seminar that I teach, I will give this advice and somebody will raise their hand and say, oh dear, this advice is going to make me very nervous. And the advice is this, it kind of goes back to what we talked about at the beginning of our discussion, is that when we start to engage in a sexual interaction, sometimes our body starts to bring up emotions or thoughts about something else. Maybe a hurt that we have felt or a misunderstanding. And it creates a little emotion for us. And maybe, in this case, we’ll say it’s a negative emotion. So my advice is stop. Stop the arousal, stop the sexual interaction and talk about that emotion. Now, like I said, almost every time someone will raise their hand and say, oh, if I do that, then I won’t, I won’t get back into the moment. And I won’t feel the arousal again that I’m feeling. And so I would rather just kind of shove that emotion, that negative emotion down. I would rather put it aside and not deal with that.

My advice is that’s not a very responsible or healthy way to treat our body. Our body brings up our emotions as little flags. They’re just little flags that signal that something is out of balance. And so when we ignore that, what we’re really doing is, if we do it on a regular basis, if we’re consistently ignoring those emotions, then we start to blunt our emotions. We start to kind of numb ourselves to those emotions. And then we actually feel less arousal. We feel less connection with our partner. So even in good marriages, where people think that they’re pretty close to each other, they’re pretty connected, they have a happy relationship, sometimes there are little hurts that we haven’t addressed. Maybe we just forgot about it, but then it rises to the surface at some point. So if you’re in an intimate moment and some sort of negative emotion comes up, just respect that, give it a little space, resolve it, and I guarantee what will happen is as we honor this, whoever it is, whichever partner had this come up for them they will feel more connected and more in tune with their partner and arousal will become more easy to access. And we’ll feel greater connection because emotionally we’re connecting with each other. All of these things are related. They’re all intertwined. And when we ignore the emotional side and just focus on the physical arousal, we miss this really beautiful part that could be contributing.

Dan:

Got it. So just to illustrate that, are you talking about, let’s say you’re starting to kiss and touch and things are starting to feel really good and the thought pops in your head, wait a minute, you didn’t pick up the milk like I asked you to, and so instead of shoving that away, pause the kissing for a second and address that?

Dr. Chelom Leavitt:

Yeah. And just say, you know what, it kind of hurt my feelings the other day when you forgot the milk, it probably just slipped your mind, but could we just address that for a second? And then hopefully, you know, that would be easily resolved and you would continue, that would create even greater emotional connection. Because we’re honoring the feelings of each other, we’re not being hostile and saying, I just remembered you never, whatever. No, we have a gentle start-up and we understand where our partner’s coming from and we resolve it. And that’s usually pretty easy in couples who have a good foundation of a relationship.

Dan:

Yeah. That’s so important to have a good foundation. Mindfulness, I feel like is like a two part thing. One is becoming more aware of the present and my body, being here and not someplace else. And second is also being able to focus and concentrate for an extended period of time on one thing. Is that a good summary?

Dr. Chelom Leavitt:

Yeah. That’s a pretty good summary. I think that you also have to include, especially for sex, you also have to include this element of letting go of judgment.Wwhen something comes up that maybe I feel uncomfortable about in sex, maybe my partner wanted to try a different position or try something a little more creative. And I automatically thought, I don’t think that’s okay, that seems like that might be a little shameful. Instead, just saying, I wonder why he, or she wants to do that. Let’s discuss that. And let’s be a little curious about that instead of being judgmental.

Dan:

That curiosity sure goes a long way, doesn’t it?

Dr. Chelom Leavitt:

Yes. It’s such a positive, gentle way to interact with something that’s unknown to us. When our partner has a different response or wants to try something new and maybe we’re the less creative one, being curious instead of judgmental will really help you kind of bridge that gap.

Dan:

It doesn’t mean you have to do it, but just be curious, find out why.

Dr. Chelom Leavitt:

Yeah. And what may happen is you learn something new about your partner, that maybe they’ve had this secret, fantasy of whatever, and it helps you understand them in a different way. And again, you don’t have to go ahead and do it, but you may want to after you learn why they’re so interested in whatever it is.

Dan:

And that curiosity, I say, it goes both ways. If I’m, for instance, the creative one saying, hey, I want to do this. And my wife says, no, this is my opportunity to get curious too. Instead of feeling rejected or whatever.

Dr. Chelom Leavitt:

And in fact that brings me to an interesting point that intimacy actually means learning something new. We create intimacy when we learn something new about our partner. And sometimes that can even be kind of in an uncomfortable way, like maybe there’s hurt feelings or a misunderstanding. Here’s my opportunity to be curious and to say, why did we have this misunderstanding? Or why did you respond that way? And why did my feelings get hurt? Trying to understand myself, but also understand my partner through curiosity. And it’s through that curiosity that we create this new knowledge about each other, and that’s intimacy.

Dan:

Definitely. Absolutely. Well, thank you very much, Dr. Leavitt. This has been fantastic.

Dr. Chelom Leavitt:

This has been fun for me too. Thank you, Dan.

Dan:

Where’s a good place for people to go to find more about your work?

Dr. Chelom Leavitt:

You can visit my website. It’s just chelomleavitt.com! And I have a number of podcasts and blogs that talk about women’s sexuality, couples sexual mindfulness, and then also talking to your kids about sex. So, it’s a nice place to maybe learn a little more information all based in research about sexuality.

Dan:

Excellent. Thank you very much!

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