Like many of you, I’ve had questions about BDSM for a long time. I’ve had preconceived ideas of what it was and wondered how it fits into my faith and the style of intimate play my wife and I enjoy.
I have also received emails and DMS from many of you listeners asking me about BDSM in the context of a faithful Christian marriage. I’ve been hesitant in doing an episode about this for a long time, until I found the right guest.
I used to think BDSM was dark and evil–a thinly disguised form of rape, aggression, and violence. I also thought it was antisocial if it was about enjoying inflicting pain on others, in some sort of a sick and twisted way. But then again, even a couple in a “vanilla” missionary position could be doing it with dark and evil intent. While sex in vanilla missionary position or BDSM play can be done in a loving, faithful, beautiful, playful, and deeply erotic way that deepens a couple’s connections.
In short, it’s not really the act, but the intention behind the act that really matters.
After listening to this episode, you may want to try some of this couple’s suggestions to enhance the joy and intimacy in your marriage.
I met Allen and his lovely wife Leila through a men’s group that I belong to. They’re a faithful, wonderful, and upstanding couple married for nearly three decades.
I’m very grateful that they were kind and courageous enough to come on my podcast to share their experience with BDSM. They answered many of my questions and I hope you find this episode really insightful, too.
Note that this is going to be a two part episode. This is part 1 with part 2 being released next week.
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Virtual Lovemaking Retreat – Easily accessible due to its virtual nature, this retreat on February 14th-15th is the perfect Valentines gift to you and your spouse! Stay tuned for updates on this exciting retreat!
Men’s Only and Women’s Only small group coaching program – The next cohort starts January 22nd. We meet weekly for 12 weeks to do a deep dive into the intimacy of your marriage. And this includes a comprehensive course and all materials and coaching to help you apply everything you learn. You’ll walk away from this three month program a better husband or wife and power to take your marriage to the next level.
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Transcript
This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors or inaccuracies. For the most accurate and complete experience, we recommend listening to the full podcast episode.
#222: BDSM Part 1
Dan: [00:00:00] Like many of you I’ve had questions about BDSM for a long time. I’ve had preconceived ideas of what it was and wondered how it fits into my faith and the style of intimate play.
My wife and I enjoy. I also have received emails and DMS from many of you listeners asking me about BDSM in the context of a faithful Christian marriage. I’ve been hesitant in doing an episode about this for a long time, until I found the right guest.
I used to think BDSM was dark and evil. A thinly disguised form of rape aggression and violence. I also thought it was antisocial if it was about enjoying, inflicting pain on others, in some sort of a sick and twisted way. But then again, Even a couple in a vanilla missionary position, sex could be doing it with dark and evil intent and short. It’s not really the act, but why you’re doing the act is what really matters.
Then again, even vanilla missionary position, sex or BDSM for that matter can be done in a loving, faithful, beautiful, playful, and deeply [00:01:00] erotic way that deepens a couple’s connections. Like nothing else can facilitating and forging a bond.
So strong. It creates an unbreakable marriage. After listening to this episode, you may want to try some of the fund’s suggestions to enhance the joy and intimacy in your marriage.
I met Alan and his lovely wife, Lee Eila through a men’s group that I belong to. They’re a faithful wonderful and upstanding couple married for nearly three decades.
I’m very grateful that they were kind and courageous enough to come here, to share their experience with BDSM with me, they answered many of my questions and I hope you find this episode really insightful, too. Note that this is going to be a two part episode. You’ll hear part one today. And next week I’ll release part two.
Now I have three quick announcements before you get to meet my guests.
First of all, as of this recording, we had just three spots left for in-person couples retreat in St. George Utah. This is ideal for couples in an otherwise happy marriage, but wished to make intimacy their [00:02:00] strongest part of their relationship. Our retreats are romantic fun as well as transformative.
Learn more on our website or click on the link in the show notes.
Second we’re putting on a virtual retreat over Valentine’s day, Friday and Saturday, February 14th and 15th. This is where you will join me, live in the comfort of your home or hotel in three sessions over two days. I’ll walk you through a sexual practice over the two days designed to really be deeply connecting, relaxing, very romantic, and very erotic. Also. And this will be an unforgettable Valentine’s day for you. Details are on our website or the link is in our show notes too.
Lastly, if you’re looking to accelerate growth in yourself and in your marriage this year, our men’s only, and women’s only small group coaching program is just for you. The next cohort starts January 22nd. We meet weekly for 12 weeks to do a deep dive into the intimacy of your marriage. And this includes a comprehensive course, all materials and [00:03:00] coaching to help you apply everything you learn.
You’ll walk away from this three month program, a better husband or wife and power to take your marriage to the next level.
Dan (2): Leila and Alan, welcome to the Get Your Marriage On podcast. I’m happy to have you here today.
Allen & Leila: Thanks, Dan. We’re glad to be here. Glad to be here.
Dan (2): Can you tell me of a meaningful experience you’ve had where you were probably in a funk, and what did you do to get out of it?
Allen & Leila: There was this one time when I was very anxious. It just been really stressful and my body had a lot of tension in it. And, so I asked my husband if he would Do a flogging session with me. Um, and when I feel like, so one of the things that we do is, you know, I go pick out the ones I want him to use on me that day and I, we have this one. I have nicknamed it the pain flogger. And, um, so I only get that out occasionally, but I definitely wanted it that day.
Dan (2): Only [00:04:00] on special occasions, I see. Uh huh. Uh huh.
Allen & Leila: It’s like a tool for a specific purpose.
Yeah, it, it’s more stingy. So it, it, it hurts more, for me anyway. And, so, you know, we’re going through our normal, normal routine and. He of course asks me again, you want this? And I said, yes. And so he delivers what I’m asking for. And, I think I even asked for more that day, or, you know, a little harder kind of thing.
And I, I, that day I needed it hard enough to make me cry and once release, and then I just, all that tension and. Stuff just was released from my body and and then when I’m ready or Then I just say okay, that’s enough stop and So, you know, I’m completely in control of what he’s delivering to me, but it helped me be more calm and [00:05:00] release all that physical sensation and tension. Yeah, you know, we tend to hold like stress and fear, anxiety often in the body.
Dan (2): Oh yeah.
Allen & Leila: And so by having an embodied experience, which is something that something like a flogging session can deliver if done correctly, um, it absolutely can help someone release and process emotions. And I certainly never expected that when I started learning about things like flogging, but it is definitely a way that I have worked with.
We’ve worked together and I’ve seen it work with other people. Uh, to where they’re able to process and release, you know, emotions, basically, she’s not normally one for pain. Most of the floggers that we have are very soft, very soft leathers, like moose hide, for example, and they’re heavy. So they deliver this kind of somatic impact, almost like deep tissue massage, right? and she loves that, right? It’s a very sensational experience. It’s pressure on the body. It’s, it’s, uh, yeah. It feels really nice, actually. I’d call that a th I’d call [00:06:00] it a thuddy feeling. And I Relate that to kind of like a massage. Yeah. Yeah. And so that’s, uh, that’s kind of the, and there’s a process we start soft and work gently.
And then at some point you work to that. I, we, for that scene and most of them that we do for impact play and flogging specifically, uh, is it’s done to music. So it’s almost like a dance. It’s very arithmetic. And then sometimes there’s a pause and you might drag the soft leather falls across the body. So it’s a mix of Yeah.
Physical impact as well as sensations, if that makes sense.
Dan (2): Got it. So this is a world. I get lots of questions on in my email. Anonymous questions sometimes too about BDSM. Is it okay? What is it? And I’m so excited that we’re talking about this today. Can you tell me first of all, when I think of BDSM, I think of like. Fifty Shades of Grey. I admit I have never seen the movie or read the book before, but I understand the concept [00:07:00] and when I think about it, I think about taking pleasure out of inflicting pain and torturing another person, but from the story you’re telling me, I don’t think that’s what’s really going on.
Is there a better way to think about it?
Allen & Leila: I think so. Um, so first off people within the broader kink world and people that are BDSM serious practitioners really dislike Fifty Shades of
Dan (2): Uh huh. EL James in many ways misrepresents the foundational concepts and the way it plays out. In fact, we were a friend of ours, actually, we were discussing this and he’s a little more experienced than we are out of the UK. And he sent us a little video, it’s a whole article where there’s 17, you know, like ethical violations in the movie, right?
Allen & Leila: So, so realize that. You’re right, that’s often an introduction, um, into some of the concepts, but it’s really misapplied in that, uh, by the author of the books and in turn in the movies.
There are elements of [00:08:00] sensualism, no question, which is something that can be included, but it also doesn’t have to be. And so, yeah, primarily it’s not at all about delivering pain, unless, in the example she gave, that’s specifically what someone is asking for, and it’s for a purpose.
I do not take any personal pleasure in that at all.
Now. Maybe there’s people that do,
but we’ve rarely seen that with anybody we’ve talked or interfaced with. I think BDSM is a. Umbrella term
for anything in that’s not vanilla, or you could also substitute the word, you know, anything kinky,
Dan (2): Okay,
Allen & Leila: is anything not vanilla. Right.
So I think if you think of it in those terms and not as in pain and sadism and masochism, you know, those kinds of things that that’s a better way to think of it.
Dan (2): Gotcha.
Allen & Leila: Yeah, I think that’s accurate. I’ve met very few people that I would say are like masochists. And [00:09:00] even if I did, or sadists, and they don’t really take pleasure from the pain. Mostly what we’ve experienced and in people we’ve talked to and reading and learning as best we can about this, um, is that it’s really primarily about power exchange.
Dan (2): Uh huh.
Allen & Leila: know, it’s really about, about someone being able to take responsibility for the care, safety, et cetera, and someone else to Voluntarily agree to the terms of that and release their responsibility and step into receiving, if that makes
Dan (2): Gotcha. So how is that power play like Disney movies then?
Allen & Leila: So, yeah, this is an example I try to explain to people. So whether you take Snow White, Beauty and the Beast, Sleeping Beauty or Shrek.
Dan (2): Uh huh. Mm
Allen & Leila: they’re all versions of this idea of a princess who wants to lay back and receive, you know, princess treatment. Of course, the ultimate one, Sleeping Beauty there. Um, In some version of that, and a strong, [00:10:00] prince charming character, he may be flawed, right, in some ways, but, but he’s essentially a strong male who’s dominant, who, in many ways, the magic kiss, right, knows how to touch her, all those kind of things. But it’s this idea of a strong, Um, caring, but also, um, assertive man who’s coming to protect her, to take care of her, to again, to romance her, all of that stuff is, is wrapped up in it. And what’s interesting to me is more I’ve learned about the principles around BDSM in particular is that that’s really what you’re, you’re stepping into those roles.
You’re stepping into each of those roles
Dan (2): She’s the princess. He’s the prince charming. Uh
Allen & Leila: yes, in a,
Dan (2): a
Allen & Leila: a yes, right. And so there’s, again, as, as Carl Jung would say, like, that’s an archetypical human story,
Dan (2): Uh huh, yeah,
Allen & Leila: If you look across, whether it’s Greek tragedies, Roman stories, Viking, Celtic stories, like there’s elements of that. In [00:11:00] almost all those stories, sort of the prince charming princess story, right?
It’s not just Disney, but
it is a human seems to be for a lot of people, a human experience. There’s certainly a variety, right? We’re all on a spectrum
of things. There’s some people that would say, Oh, that’s crazy. I don’t want that. Cool. That’s great. But largely, and when you look at data and information, particularly about women and what they want in sort of the fantasy world, things that I want, I’ve seen various ones where there’s Kinsey or a few others, but they almost all report some version of an assertive or more dominant experience in the bedroom.
Right. And I’m sure you’ve seen some of the same
data. It’s. It’s really common. And so this is a way to formally step into that kind of dynamic,
right, if that makes sense.
Dan (2): So the appeal is, it’s the power play. It’s the,
I get to be
a princess, and to be pampered too, and
Allen & Leila: If it, yeah, there’s lots of different things you can do, right? That’s the thing. That’s one dynamic. But yes, that’s [00:12:00] one that I think, uh, commonly appeals to people, right? Um, I think particularly when you come, for example, from those of us, from a more conservative, uh, Christian background, we often enter our marriage and relationships with some very role based ideas.
And, and sadly for a lot of women, you know, they don’t, they’re not comfortable stepping into receiving like sexually and receiving erotic energy,
right,
It’s this, they’re constantly managing and limiting,
right? The, the, the withdraw or pursue or HDP LDP, depending on the language that you’re looking
at.
And frankly, this is a way to step out of that dynamic.
Dan (2): gotcha,
uh
Allen & Leila: It’s, it’s a way to intentionally, you know, go, okay, I have to, you know, Like for the woman anyway, in this case, and it can be either way, but you know, we practice it kind of that way. So we typically talk in those terms. It can be reverse. Um, and I’ve seen both. Um, but they’re able to essentially let go of the stress, the anxiety, you know, Oh, my only options to receive. For example, [00:13:00] if you’re bound or restrained in some way with ropes or a silk tie or whatever, you’re blindfolded, maybe gagged,
Dan (2): uh huh,
Allen & Leila: like you have to receive.
Dan (2): right,
Allen & Leila: You know, so, and various forms of those appeal to people and some freak people out.
So
that’s all part of negotiation, but you’re negotiating and discussing a formal way in my case for me to step up to take responsibility for her care. Right for her safety. Like I’m like if she’s blindfolded, I’m responsible for her safety.
Dan (2): right, uh huh.
Allen & Leila: Right? 100%. And she has to be willing to trust and receive that.
So it’s a way to formally step up and kind of a giver receiver dynamic within a defined time.
Dan (2): hmm.
Allen & Leila: Would you agree with kind of that framing? Yeah, definitely. I feel like that you can, kind of think of it as a play almost, you
Dan (2): Uh huh.
Allen & Leila: is going to play the role as a The dominant [00:14:00] and one play person is going to play the role of the submissive and you each have your own roles to play and it even helps to have different clothing you wear or not clothing, whichever way you’re going, it’s a form of
Dan (2): Yeah, yeah, that’s fun.
Allen & Leila: Sure. So
Dan (2): And, um, so let’s do some terminology. You just said the word dominant, submissive. I think inside the BDSM community there’s a lot of, terms can we go through some of those terms real quick? What would you say is the most important concept people should know?
If they’re like me, they’re like new to this, they’re wanting to explore what the concepts are. Where do you begin?
Allen & Leila: So all of. BDSM practice is based on consent. That is foundational. So before you get into the more complexities or interesting things, it’s really about consent,
Dan (2): good to know.
Allen & Leila: right? Yeah. And so, and sort of mutual, I would say like mutual consent.
Dan (2): Mm hmm.
Allen & Leila: in fact, um, there’s, there’s some terminology that I teach. [00:15:00] Frequently, um, called fries.
Dan (2): Like french fries. Right,
Allen & Leila: fries. Yeah. So consent is F freely given.
Dan (2): Okay.
Allen & Leila: Okay.
Which means it’s not coerced. It’s not, um, you can’t give consent if you’re in a power disparity boss employee, for example, or some kind of, uh, dynamic like that, that’s problematic. R is reversible, meaning consent can be revoked at any time. And that’s critical because when you enter into a scene or something you agreed upon, right?
The steps, dance, we’ve agreed to the dance, right? Um, you can change your mind. Either party can.
Dan (2): Uh huh.
Right.
Allen & Leila: Um, in it, for example, in the, in the example she gave about the pain flogger, um, sometimes she has trouble expressing her thoughts and feelings.
And I know that
we’ve had therapy and marriage stuff about it. And so in that situation, it took me a while to trust that I would turn the decision to stop the amount of discomfort or pain delivery. And it’s not all pain, but
some over [00:16:00] to her,
right?
Dan (2): Because you’re like, no, I know better. This is hurting her. I don’t want to do this. But
no, you have to trust that she will say stop when she is ready.
Allen & Leila: exactly. And so that’s one of the critical things is that both sides can revoke consent
or say, Hey, I’m done with this piece. It doesn’t mean everything’s terrible. It simply means, Hey, you know what?
We discussed this. I’m going to do it. But I, you know, we got partway in and I changed my mind and nobody can get pouty and upset.
That’s kind of the ground rules,
Right.
Is it’s, it’s freely, freely given a reversible. I is informed, meaning that You understand what the risks are, what the pros and cons are, what tools you’re using, you know, so you’ve kind of reviewed that. Uh, E stands for enthusiastic. This concept of enthusiastic consent, again, not coerced, right?
So it really should be a, yeah, I really want to try that. Now she tends to not be a super enthusiastic about things and I tend to be the one that encourages variety. So, you know, you don’t always have like super enthusiastic consent that different, uh, bits per person to person, [00:17:00] but you don’t ever want to coerce somebody.
Like it, it has to be very, Hey, yeah, I’m, I’m willing to try that.
Right. It can’t be like, well, gosh, I guess,
Dan (2): Uh huh.
Allen & Leila: and S is specific, meaning that just because we’ve agreed to a specific, consensual arrangement about the time and what we’re doing, it doesn’t mean that automatically replicates that, you know, forever after.
And, and to be honest, these are actually rules for sexual consent,
but they’ve been, but to be frank, the original models from Planned Parenthood actually about sexual consent. So. I think one of the two things about marriage is we often come in with assumptions and don’t sit and talk about consent. And that’s not just for the receiver.
That’s for both
sides, right?
Dan (2): Whether you’re practicing tying each other up in the bedroom or not. You,
this is a fantastic, that every married couple should be absolutely 100 percent on board with. Are we fully
consenting
Allen & Leila: I agree. in fact, sometimes I, I wish even, uh, in our churches, we actually had, uh, I wouldn’t replace discussions about some things [00:18:00] like modesty with consent.
Dan (2): Uh huh.
Yeah,
Allen & Leila: I think it’s a much more important principle in relationships that we, um, you know, we, we kind of take for granted, I guess, particularly in, in marriage.
Right. And, and we’re sometimes afraid to talk about, so that’s one thing about the whole practice of any of this kind of non vanilla stuff, you can’t make assumptions. You have to be specific, and it needs to be consensual,
Dan (2): Right. Right.
Allen & Leila: that makes sense.
Dan (2): Right. Uh huh.
Allen & Leila: So that’s kind of the big one. Um, so, yeah, you’ll hear the terms dominant and sub, and a lot of people misunderstand that.
They’ll think that submissive means the kind of biblical, Submit to your husband. That’s not at all
Dan (2): huh. Uh huh.
Allen & Leila: So can you, it means more like the one being taken care of, I would
Dan (2): Uh huh.
Allen & Leila: or the one being vulnerable.
Yes.
Is more what the sub role and it can be either gender. It
doesn’t have to be just. Female gender for sure. Yeah, that’s
Dan (2): And would you say [00:19:00] the submissive person is where most of the attention is on in that particular moment?
Allen & Leila: Yes, they’re they’re the receiver. They are getting all the sensations
Yeah, and and they’re not expected to necessarily reciprocate Right.
but it’s by specific agreement that you enter into this This dominant or responsible deliverer that, that sort of, you know, deliver a receiver role, a giver and receiver role is, is kind of what you’re stepping into, but it’s also, like I said, a place where typically you’ve agreed that the submissive is going to listen to whatever the dominant suggests, but keep in mind, you’ve pre agreed or mapped out the, the dance or the role play you’re going to do. For us, and I think most people that we work with or talk to, that’s really stepping into that play space.
Right. You’re, you’re choosing to have a well designed play, well designed role play, or, you know, almost like this, this emotional and physical dance. Another terminology I’ve heard. Instead of just Dom sub is [00:20:00] top and
Dan (2): Mm hmm.
Allen & Leila: So you can also think of it like that too And one more term that we should include is called switch.
Dan (2): Okay.
Allen & Leila: So you can switch the roles. You know, the woman can be the top and the man can be the bottom. Yeah.
And even in, um, we’ve met couples like that, that they take turns being top and bottom.
Dan (2): Uh huh.
Allen & Leila: And nobody’s all one or the other. Uh, there’s actually a bdsmtest. org. I don’t get any money for mentioning it, but it’s just what everybody uses.
And you can answer a bunch of questions there. Um, and so it’s a place I often refer people who are searching for this. And at first, when you read it, there’s some stuff that’s like, what the heck? That’s weird. But get over
Dan (2): Uh huh. Uh
Allen & Leila: know,
go through it because it will kind of give you some scores of where you score and it’s often surprising.
So even though in our relationship and kind of in life, I play a more naturally dominant role. I actually have a pretty high submissive score. In other words, I’m okay. Being the person being received,
right? Or, or receiving. Um, we don’t often play that [00:21:00] way. That’s just kind of not how it is for us. But like score wise, that’s the case.
And same thing for Switch, right? So, so it’s not all one or the other. It’s not binary choice. It’s a whole spectrum.
Dan (2): Just to be clear, this is the playtime in your marriage. Outside of that playtime, outside of the quote unquote bedroom here, I, we want to balance. We’re partners in life. We’re husband and wife. We’re a team. We’re together. We’re no side by side. It’s just that when we, when we step, when the door is locked and closed, we’re stepping into a new play role
that we, we both find appealing.
And it’s this, it’s the, The damsel in distress and the knight on a shining horse, whatever play out you’re going to do, this is the, that’s the idea. Dominant, submissive in this playful
Allen & Leila: Yeah. And, and even though we have a lot of tools and, and, you know, we’ve been down this path for over a decade kind of learning about and practicing personally, and now we’re a little more public,
obviously, and [00:22:00] trying to teach and train about what we think are some, some good principles that appeal to some people.
It doesn’t mean we do that even all that often,
quite honestly, even like, like a flogging scene or something like, I don’t even know if we’re like weekly, you know,
Dan (2): uh huh,
Allen & Leila: Yeah, sometimes it might be a couple nights in a row,
but there are elements of it that play out in how we interact in the bedroom,
you know, like she often prefers even, you know, during some forms of sex to be held down or restrained.
It doesn’t take ropes. That’s just body weight,
Dan (2): right, right, right, uh huh,
Allen & Leila: for example, right?
So,
Dan (2): spanked on the bum or something fun, uh huh, right, uh huh,
Allen & Leila: When done correctly. Yeah. Spanking is a whole nother thing that’s actually impact with your palm. But, but yeah, and, and that’s an example. She often, she really likes that. I mean, we were, um, we were, I was actually watching football Sunday afternoon, a couple of weeks ago, and she kind of, we were to get her phone and turned her cute rear end towards me.
And I’m like, okay, if I kind of pat you here and she’s like, Yeah, I should have giving her a little impact. Well, we’ve done enough of that. I know how to do it. And she likes it. She got quite[00:23:00]
Dan (2): Uh huh.
Allen & Leila: So it’s on the sofa because the kids were downstairs.
Do you like that?
Oh, yeah, it was very good. Right? So my point is a scene doesn’t have to be. Complicated like, literally, that’s a scene.
And yeah, I’m, I’m sort of multitasking watching football and using my right hand on her bum. But, you know, you’re like football. But, but, but that’s I mean, it’s kind of a silly example, but because we’re comfortable with that, it was negotiated. Consent was all given just in. That so it doesn’t have to be complicated. Right. I think that’s one thing people look at. And we talk about a role player stepping into that. They think it’s complicated. It’s not like it can be really, really simple. It’s really about honest and authentic communication about what you each want. Does that make
Dan (2): Makes sense?
I heard a story about a woman. She’s, works for a law firm, very masculine energy, high stress, telling everyone what to do all day, kind of a
job, and comes home. And she had married a very [00:24:00] good man. But he’s also a very gentle man. And in the bedroom, oftentimes what was playing out is she’s replicating what she’s doing in the law office, in the bedroom, and she’s losing her desire to be sexual with her husband because he’s a gentle guy.
And in the bedroom, he’s gentle. And the last thing she wants is to tell her husband what to
do to her. So,
Allen & Leila: Right, She literally wants to be in that receiving, taking care of
place because she’s stressed all day. Yeah,
she wants to be restrained and
Dan (2): Absolutely.
Right. So she told her husband, you know, I really want you to tie me up and have your way with me. And he had a hard time with that. Like, that’s not me, but go ahead. It looks like you’re about to say something.
Allen & Leila: You can think of it like a play almost like you’re playing. I think we mentioned that earlier, but you can think of it like a play where you’re taking on just this role for this, you know, this one [00:25:00] time event type thing. You could even have different clothes you wear, or you have a different voice you use, or, you know, that might help someone try
Dan (2): Step
Allen & Leila: Step into that
Dan (2): Uh huh.
Allen & Leila: think of it as a role, and, and use your drama skills you learned in high school. Yeah. So there are some times when she wants something rougher, uh, than I normally give as husband. And so more than once I’ll be like, okay, I called a guy
Dan (2): He’s going to come over and he’s going to do this to you.
Allen & Leila: Yes, literally. And so I leave the bedroom. I kind of, I breathe and change my mindset. I knock on the door and then I come in by mean Russian accent and I am going to hold you down and you are going to take it. Right?
Dan (2): That’s awesome.
Allen & Leila: it’s, I mean, that might be TMI for some people, but that’s an example of. Not only in my mindset, but literally in my actions and even voice, I step out of who I
Dan (2): right? Mm-Hmm?
Allen & Leila: And this guy doesn’t care about her, right? Like he’s, [00:26:00] he’s,
Dan (2): Uhhuh.
Allen & Leila: he’s, he’s there to do his business and leave. And he leaves. And then I come back and, Oh, honey, are you okay?
I’m here to love you. And after care, you know, so, but, but to your point, like she’s saying, you literally can step out of, into and out of those roles to either Just in your mind a little bit or in a complete thing. And what you’re describing about CEO types or type A directive personalities, super, super common for them to actually be submissive
when it
comes to the bedroom, read that’s really, really common for men or women, you know, and you might think it’d be reversed, which is like how it’s portrayed in 50 shades of gray, which just isn’t the case. A Christian gray is actually a submissive. Like if you know the story of the books at all, he was actually in a submissive relationship. So it’s kind of weird that then they portray him as this Quasi dominant guy. It’s just, it’s a mess. That’s one of those non good
Dan (2): Uhhuh. Inconsistent things
Okay. Uhhuh.
Allen & Leila: Yeah, exactly.
But, but that’s, but that’s really, really common. And, and like I said, for the sort of dominant role, it’s largely about [00:27:00] confidence.
And you don’t, what I would say to somebody, you don’t have to have to be perfect at it.
Right. It’s really stepping. I mean, you know, if you’re doing, for example, a play, like she said, high school, college, whatever, you may not be perfect.
And I can deliver all your lines perfectly, you know, but this is like an improv play.
Dan (2): Yes. Uhhuh.
Allen & Leila: So you’re feeding off of each other to some degree, and you don’t have to be perfect. And if you make a mistake and say, oops, that was wrong, or she can go, oh, that was too hard. You know?
Oh, okay. Or that’s too soft.
Right? So you do have to have some open communication. And again, I think that’s something that’s. Before we started practicing this, we probably weren’t great at that in the bedroom, so to speak, but we’re way better at it now just saying, Oh, I want this. I want that. I like this. I like that. You know, that sort of thing.
Um, the term scene is one that we’ve used also. And, um, that’s really essentially anything you’ve agreed to do.
Dan (2): Okay. Uhhuh. .
Allen & Leila: If that for a certain amount of time. Yeah. Or yeah. Or a certain series of events, however long that [00:28:00] takes, you know? and and another one that’s, that’s critical is, is I think I mentioned, is sort of aftercare. And it’s been interesting to me in talking about this, I’ve been surprised at people that don’t practice aftercare. After just normal, even vanilla ish sex,
but that’s really, it’s, it’s several parts, so it’s talking about the experience or processing. So particularly for the giver, like I, or the Dom right at the top, I need feedback. That’s what helps me feel okay. That whatever I’ve done was either good or that she enjoyed it. And so that’s critical for me to soothe any of my concerns that I did it
Dan (2): Right? Uhhuh.
Yep. Or feedback? I probably did do it wrong. Now I know for next time,
Allen & Leila: Well, yeah, we’re not even wrong, but Oh, I would have liked this differently.
Or if you’re using floggers and it’s really easy to miss and it can wrap around the body and that really stings. And so that just happens once usually, and you, and you move on and you just realize[00:29:00]
Dan (2): Not
Allen & Leila: like one thing, sometimes it would hit my neck and Over, you know, multiple times. So we just got to where we put a towel on my neck or one of the soft loggers, and then we don’t have that problem anymore. Right. Until I got better at accuracy and now I’m good at accuracy.
Dan (2): Uhhuh.
Allen & Leila: So I
think one thing that, that is critical. Because BDSM doesn’t have to involve sex at all. Realize any of the stuff you’re practicing, people associate the two, but it’s simply one menu item on a very, very large and varied menu
Dan (2): Right, right, uh huh,
Allen & Leila: right? And often people wrap it up. Sometimes we do, sometimes we don’t, you know, sometimes we’ll do some sort of scene and it may have erotic elements in it, but it’s not necessarily sexual, if that makes
Dan (2): makes
sense,
Allen & Leila: know, like even just grabbing her hair and kissing her against the wall. And then I let her go and I walk away.
Right? That is a form of sort of DS play.
You know, but it
Dan (2): meaning Dominant Submissive, uh huh,
Allen & Leila: Yes. Right. Cause I’m establishing my dominance by, you know, [00:30:00] by grabbing her hair and holding it and see the smile.
Sorry, your audience can’t
Dan (2): huh,
Allen & Leila: but you can tell she likes that.
And, and then, you know, I’ll kiss her or whatever, and then let her go.
But that’s establishing sort of that DS dynamic. And You know, and, and something for her. So the aftercare parts critical for us, it normally involves like a lot of cuddling and talking and often, but not always we might transition then to some version of, of sex or sexual, you know, engagement,
but not always, but the aftercare piece is critical. Um, especially if there’s been something like a pain involved or something that’s outside of the norm that I’m going to struggle with. It’s important that for me that she says, Hey, I asked for it. I consented, I enjoyed it. Yeah. It, it, it hurt me a little bit or even left a mark or a bruise. Cause that will happen.
Dan (2): mm hmm,
Allen & Leila: Um, you know, yeah, I can, you know, some people think that’s a badge of honor too. They love the bruises.
So that’s
true. Yeah. Some people are more into the pain piece. She’s not as much, we’ve definitely met and [00:31:00] seen people that are, but it’s, for me, it’s important to process, not just did I do a good job, but I didn’t do any harm.
Dan (2): right.
Allen & Leila: And so one of the phrases that I use is I talk to the mind, the heart and the body, and I review if there’s, I actually will look and review if I’ve left any bruises or anything, and I’ll address those bruises individually and say, Hey, I didn’t mean any, any harm, or there was nothing negative
about it.
all.
I might rub or put salve on if, if it’s a red mark that stays rarely, they don’t, we don’t normally play that hard. Um, So that’s pretty rare for us, but I’ll make sure to, to the mind that in heart, that, that, that nothing I did or said, even if it was rougher or in a different character was from a place of anger
Dan (2): Yeah.
Uh huh.
Allen & Leila: that her psyche or emotions don’t take on any of that as a trauma or negative stuff.
And so the aftercare piece. And so your psyche doesn’t take on that also, like you’re told you never hit a woman when you’re younger, right? Like you take care of them. So it kind of. [00:32:00] Messes with your mind when you’re being asked to hit a woman
Dan (2): Yeah,
Allen & Leila: you know,
you
Dan (2): and being told she enjoys it.
Allen & Leila: Yes, exactly. Yeah. So, I do think the aftercare piece is one that’s important and it’s helped us be better about in our normal day to day relationship, right? Frankly, negotiate prior to sex, even if it’s quick and simple, and to make sure that the aftercare piece to talk about it, um, not just, you know, did you like
it? But more than that, you know, what did you like about it and what meanings does it bring to you? And, and like I said, from BDSM stuff, what we’ve noticed particularly impact play and flogging is often brings up feelings and emotional processing and making time and space for that is pretty important
because it’s kind of unexpected.
Honestly, you don’t, you know, you don’t think of it that way. You think of it as just delivering, you know, sensations and that can be an important part, but often it relates to emotional experience.
Dan (2): I can see that. And in my mind’s eye, I can see how the aftercare step may, you [00:33:00] might spend just as much time there as you do on the actual play part too.
So,
Allen & Leila: We usually plan on half the amount of time that we did. In the flogging scene in aftercare. Yeah. So, cause my typical flogging scenes about 40 minutes actually. So we’re not talking, it’s, it’s fairly extensive and that’s if it’s just flogging, if there’s sensations or, you know, like rope, cause rope is fun, but it takes a long time.
So we don’t typically do it. Kind of its own activity and it’s not necessarily sexual. Yeah, it’s, it’s not, but we don’t, but there are people out there who love to be tied up and they just, It’s just their happy place. Yeah, they melt. It’s so interesting.
Dan (2): yeah, yeah.
Allen & Leila: going,
Dan (2): So let’s say we touched on this briefly, but any tips for people that, are, shy, nervous to step into, Playing in this way, whether it’s to be the one tied up or the one to have their way with a [00:34:00] person that is tied up.
Like,
Allen & Leila: I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t use the term have your way. Cause again, that’s
kind of the
Dan (2): Oh yeah, that’s the joke. Um, yeah,
yeah.
yeah.
Allen & Leila: Right.
Cause then it’s not have your way. Cause it’s literally not my way. So one thing that I think is misunderstood, the submissive is in
Dan (2): Okay. I’m glad we’re talking about this.
So, so this is like, uh, Leila saying, Alan, I want you to use this and then I want you to use this and I want you to use this and this is how I want you to, who’s in charge. She’s in charge, right? It’s it’s the submissive one is in charge of the scene
always.
Allen & Leila: is. Now I’m responsible to deliver
it, right? You know, so, um, you know, I, I have to, I have to be skillful. I have to use the, so keep in mind too, you don’t just negotiate what you do. You, you negotiate what you talk about.
You negotiate terminology.
What do you want to be
called? For example, do you want to be called?
Oh, you’re my good, good girl.
[00:35:00] Or, and I, you know, do you want to be called a dirty little slut?
You can’t believe you just want this the whole
Dan (2): uh huh,
Allen & Leila: you
Dan (2): uh huh, uh huh,
Allen & Leila: you can see
Dan (2): you
Allen & Leila: she likes,
Dan (2): right, exactly, uh huh,
Allen & Leila: Right. So some people. At first, you’re probably not comfortable with some of those other terms, right? And again, I think that comes from our puritanical background.
And so actually being comfortable with terminology that you may not use again, you’re filling that role, right? That the dialogue you might use changes or can
doesn’t have to, but it can, because you’re not only trying to address the physical sensations, you’re trying to address sort of the mental and erotic energy elements.
It’s a very, Uh, energetic experience. And so I always try and be in the right, like frame of mind, frame of heart, because that comes out in the energy I deliver with the tool and how I talk. Does that, does that make
Dan (2): makes perfect sense, mm hmm,
Allen & Leila: I think that’s off, to be honest, I think that’s, [00:36:00] um, I’m, as you know, I’m in several other men’s groups and that’s how we met.
But as I’ve listened to other people’s stories and you get into the details about, you know, kind of what goes on in people’s bedrooms sometimes, I think that. Exchange of erotic energy that and the willingness to give and receive is often a real block for a lot of people and, and by structuring this sort of ethical framework and this conversational framework around what you’re going to do again, consent, power dynamics, establishing roles, agreements, it’s revocable.
Like, once you establish a safe space, you can take more risk
Dan (2): hmm, right,
Allen & Leila: because at any time, because you’re safe.
Dan (2): yes,
Allen & Leila: at any time you can say, Hey, you know, I, I’m not into this. And, and I, or, or, Hey, I’m having a lot of feelings. We need to stop. And I need to cry.
Dan (2): uh huh, right.
Allen & Leila: Like that is, that is absolutely happened.
Dan (2): Uh huh.
Allen & Leila: And when you talking about the, the submissive or the bottom is. in control. You’re in [00:37:00] control of what you’re asking to be delivered. You’re also in control and you, you need to be in control of yourself. When something’s not going right, you have to be responsible to speak up and say something. And a lot of women just will, especially
Dan (2): Grin and bear it. Right? Uh huh. Mm hmm. take it. And, and sometimes that’s part of the play is take more than you maybe normally would, and that’s okay. But when it becomes, When you cross, whatever your line or threshold is, you need to be responsible and say, we need to stop. Or even if it’s just something simple, like that’s too hard, can you be a little softer? But It’s your responsibility to stay safe
hmm.
Allen & Leila: and be open to that communication both ways. So, yeah, I think that’s like, that’s a big misunderstanding.
People look at as if I’m the dominant, I’m doing what I want. That’s literally the opposite. [00:38:00] I’m only doing what she wants.
No more, no less. That’s called abuse. When you do what you want.
Dan (2): Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Allen & Leila: So does that make sense? Yeah. And you’re right. People phrase it and tie me up and do whatever. And I, and I’ve had to listen to lots of people and they’ll say that.
And I tell them, I would never do something with you. You can’t. Give me specifically what you want,
because it’s literally the whole dynamic, in my opinion, the most ethical way to practice it is not about what the, the, the person that, you know, who’s then who you’re handing control over to do what they want, you have to be able to be again.
Consent is specific,
Right.
So that’s why and is foundational and it’s specific.
Dan (2): Right. That’s the S in fries.
Allen & Leila: Yeah. And, and a lot of people, and again, I’ve done a lot of training on this and, and, and you’re right. A lot of people, and frankly, women in particular say, Oh, just tie me up and do something. No, no, no, no, no. That bottom or that submissive has the responsibility to be educated, right?
Informed is one of them too. She or, or he, if it’s a, but has [00:39:00] to be informed enough about what you’re doing and understand. And so like when I do teaching and training, I’ll show people the tools. You know, I might say, Hey, would you like me to try this on your, you know, leg or your arm to kind of show them what it’s like so that they have some idea. And even if you’re doing something that might be painful, you actually say you might impact them, whether it’s a spank or a flog and go on a scale of one to 10, where’s that? And they’ll say, Oh, that’s a two. And I’ll go, Oh, that’s a three. That’s a four. And when I get up to say a seven, I’ll be like, do you want any more than seven?
No. Now I know how much physical force to deliver. Okay.
Dan (2): Mm hmm.
Allen & Leila: That’s an example of an exercise that you, that you commonly practice before you enter in a scene so that someone’s giving you consent and you know where the thresholds are of where you want to be.
Dan (2): Yeah.
Allen & Leila: So, and it can change over time, you know, when we first started playing this, it wasn’t, it wasn’t. I couldn’t take very much. I can take a whole lot more now and I want a whole lot more now.
Dan (2): [00:40:00] Got it. Got it. How do you approach your spouse about playing this way?
Allen & Leila: Oh, you know, I think maybe don’t use BDSM.
Dan (2): that term, you mean?
Allen & Leila: Maybe, maybe you should say, Hey, I want to do a role play with
you. Yeah. I, I, think that’s, that’s probably a good one because you’re right. The initial reaction by everybody’s, you know, and I get it, you
know, so that’s often why I use the term, you know, kinky. I think if, if you’re a. Typical male, you know, the kind of guys that we hang out
with, I would say something like, I would actually ask instead of being about what I want to actually ask something like, Hey, uh, you know, I’ve read that a lot of women want something more assertive. Are you open to that? And she’ll say, yes, and you can, and I would ask, what does that look like for you?
Dan (2): Uh huh.
Allen & Leila: What, you know, in other words, the more you can get out of the sub what they want, the better [00:41:00] you can design what you’re going to deliver. Does that make
Dan (2): Makes sense.
Allen & Leila: And so again, it’s consistent with the consent model,
Dan (2): Right.
Allen & Leila: And so I, and sometimes you have to really, really dig. Because as she said, I think, uh, again, because of kind of the puritanical background, a lot of women are told not to express their feelings, their fantasies, they’re, we’re told somehow getting this subconscious message that’s terrible.
And so there’s definitely a sort of philosophical and deprogramming to step into what do you want, you
know, really,
and, and that’s vulnerable and I get it right. And so you, you have to reach a place of maturity and security with being safe as. You know, asking that question, but, but that’s one place I would start is, is try and ask, what does that look like?
And she may not know. And so then like in her case, sometimes I’ll say, okay, here’s the menu. In fact, I used to have a physical menu.
Dan (2): Uh huh. Appetizers, side I did. I had Appetizers, main course dessert.
Allen & Leila: I had spice levels and it wasn’t about BDSM. It was actually [00:42:00] about sex before I get into this,
but because I’m a creative
Dan (2): Uh huh. um,
Allen & Leila: but yeah, so, you know, Yeah, I think it still sits in our bed, right?
I even print it out with a little cute black and white pictures. Anyway, but I think the same thing’s true is I can say, hey, would you like to do some sort of scene? And for us, it’s mostly impact play and flogging, which involves a little bit of paddles or spanking, um, and then usually flogging. Uh, like I said, so that’s normal.
So we kind of have an established. What we do, you know, 90 percent of the time when we are doing something. So it doesn’t require a lot of negotiation, but, but yeah, I would just, I would start by not saying I want to be more kinky, although that’s true. I might try and share those fantasies with your spouse and the more they’re willing to share, the more you can get into, Oh, okay.
And hopefully they ask you, or if not, you say, Hey, is it okay if I share? Hey, I’d, I’d like to try this, but I think the case you mentioned is probably the most common one. Like I said, I’ve read and talked to a lot of women who really, really would like their spouse. To be more assertive and the better they just
it is very like [00:43:00] innate
Uh I I think for a lot of women and to your point We’re sort of taught to be soft and gentle and you know often as men we’re scared to step into our more masculine
roles And so there’s definitely some healing I think that you need but but yeah I would I would start by trying to have that conversation And then like we have a whole facebook group and there’s there’s actually lots of information on youtube. That’s pretty tame. So there are um You There are places where you can go to discuss and learn about this. And if at all possible connect to a community, I’m not a huge fan of that life. Um, I’ve had very mixed experiences, but it is kinda the only place to connect there. I don’t use it locally because again, I do a lot of teaching and training, but, and so we have a whole group of people that to kind of talk to.
And so I’ve tried to develop a lot of resources that I share with people about that, but, but yeah, it’s, and I, again, I wouldn’t say recommend go watch 50 shades
either. Like. That’s going to be kind of a turnoff to a lot of people, I think, but really, it’s about that. [00:44:00] Would you like, you know, more assertiveness, you know, and but learning about that. Um, there’s not great resources for it. Sadly. I mean, I wish there was. I’m like, I should teach a class, but I don’t know what that would look
Dan (2): Uh huh.
Allen & Leila: You
Dan (2): something you got to practice, something you step into. You talk it really is, and it’s, and it’s evolutionary, you know, I mean, we, the first two floggers I bought were like cheap things off of Amazon or some, you know, sex shop or whatever, and, and we tried it and they were kind of terrible.
Allen & Leila: It wasn’t until I actually, my, the first one we got, I got it in her favorite colors, which is purple, as you might
Dan (2): Uh huh. from what we’re wearing.
Allen & Leila: Um, so, um, and, and it was an elk hide flogger that was supposed to be soft and it was, it was expensive. Um, like good, good floggers, for example, are typically about 150 bucks up of high quality leathers, Italian leathers.
We have a rabbit for a flogger, like I said, moose, elk,
as well as soft cow. And the pain one, she meant actually a bullhide flogger, and each one’s finished differently and feels different,
you know, and so, um, even something like flogging, [00:45:00] like, you know, You know, I started a long time ago and the first few times were awkward and then she, I got better and she realized, oh, she did like it, you know, and we’ve sort of it’s been an evolutionary process for us.
No doubt. And again, not that it’s all about spanking and impact either. Like I said, just physically restraining somebody or being a little more. Assertive physically in the bedroom. Um, I think is, you know, is a place that, that a lot of people start, if that makes sense.
Dan (2): Gotcha.
Dan: Thank you for listening. This concludes part one of this episode, stay tuned next week for the rest of our conversation in part two. If you want a more meaningful sexual and intimate connection in your marriage, I invite you to check out my, get your marriage on program.
Over a hundred couples have said this program packs tremendous value and has helped their intimacy grow to the next level. Now go get your marriage on.
