
This is part two of the BDSM episodes. Last week we talked about how a BDSM is a exchange of erotic energy and how it’s built upon the principles of trust and communication. And in a scene or experience, you have one partner acting in the dominant role and the other in the submissive role. And it’s the submissive person who’s really in charge of the whole experience. He or she is the one saying “yes, no, maybe, etc.” And it’s really about creating an experience together that you’ll both really enjoy and bond over.
Now you’ll get to hear me talk to my guests, Alan and Leila, about more questions that I have about BDSM and how it works for them in their marriage. And I hope this is helpful for you and you gain some wonderful insights for your own marriage in this episode.
Make sure you check out Part 1 if you haven’t yet.
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transcript
This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors or inaccuracies. For the most accurate and complete experience, we recommend listening to the full podcast episode.
#223: BDSM Part 2
[00:00:00] Welcome back. This is part two of the BDSM episodes, where last week we talked about how a BDSM is a exchange of erotic energy , and how it’s built upon the principles of trust and communication. And in a, in a, they call it a scene in an experience, you have the person doing the doing that’s the dominant and the person being done.
Dan: That’s the submissive. And it’s the submissive person who’s really in charge of the whole experience. He or she is the one saying yes, no, maybe, uh, no, not that. And it’s really about creating an experience together that you’ll both really enjoy and bond over.
Now you’ll get to hear me talk to my guests, Alan and Layla, about more questions that I have about BDSM and how it works for them in their marriage. And I hope this is helpful for you and you gain some wonderful insights for your own marriage in this episode.
Now I have three quick announcements
first of all, as of this recording, we had just [00:01:00] three spots left for in-person couples retreat in St. George Utah. This is ideal for couples in an otherwise happy marriage, but wished to make intimacy their strongest part of their relationship. Our retreats are romantic fun as well as transformative.
Learn more on our website or click on the link in the show notes.
Second we’re putting on a virtual retreat over Valentine’s day, Friday and Saturday, February 14th and 15th. This is where you will join me, live in the comfort of your home or hotel in three sessions over two days. I’ll walk you through a sexual practice over the two days designed to really be deeply connecting, relaxing, very romantic, and very erotic. Also. And this will be an unforgettable Valentine’s day for you. Details are on our website or the link is in our show notes too.
Lastly, if you’re looking to accelerate growth in yourself and in your marriage this year, our men’s only, and women’s only small group coaching program is just for you. The next cohort starts [00:02:00] January 22nd. We meet weekly for 12 weeks to do a deep dive into the intimacy of your marriage. And this includes a comprehensive course, all materials and coaching to help you apply everything you learn.
You’ll walk away from this three month program, a better husband or wife and power to take your marriage to the next level.
Dan (2): So we’ve been talking about flogging a bit. What’s the appeal of being flogged? What does it do for you? Why do you like it?
Allen & Leila: Well, sometimes I describe it like a massage
Dan (2): Mm hmm.
Allen & Leila: it’s impact in, on the body, on the skin
Dan (2): Is the rhythm nice too?
Allen & Leila: yeah, yeah, you do get into the rhythm, you can kind of just escape
when, It’s especially if when you get better at it at the beginning, it probably won’t feel that way, but well, I don’t know. I’ve seen people take right to it and I’ve seen people really struggle.
So it just depends on the person, but, it, it’s a mind thing too, where you have to be dismissive and give the [00:03:00] power to the top, right?
Like, so you have to trust them. Yeah. You have to give that. Trust to them and it’s be vulnerable. And so it does release emotions often. So that’s another reason to do it. I don’t know. I, and I think also, especially if you have a, like an active mind, right? Uh, you, you’re worried about the kids. You’re worried about the dishes that are there.
Like when you’re delivering. A level of pressure and a slight bit of discomfort. And remember the, in the brain, the pleasure and pain centers are
Dan (2): Yes, they are. Uh huh.
Allen & Leila: right? So if you look at neurobiology, and so what’s interesting is as you deliver pleasure and a little bit of pain, your body starts to translate the little bit of pain as
Dan (2): Uh huh. And it also gets your attention.
Right?
It’s hard.
Allen & Leila: that’s my point. It makes you
focus.
right? So you’ve got a little bit of pressure, which is a little bit of sensation, and you’ve got a little bit of pain and the pain piece makes you focus. So particularly if you’re a little neurodivergent or you have kind of an anxious. You know, [00:04:00] brain or you’re worried about whatever
it really, um, you can’t help but focus down on what you’re feeling and processing that.
So it really helps people be completely embodied when done correctly, right? You’re not worried about other things. You’re, you’re very focused. And for the, for the top, same thing for me, like, I’m literally watching her breathing. I’m watching her finger movements. I’m watching her foot movements. I’m trying to gauge like her energy. Not everybody’s energy sensitive. I tend to be a little more high empathy, high energy sensitive person. I’ve learned
Dan (2): Uh huh. Uh huh.
Allen & Leila: And so that’s a skill that I use in working with her or in teaching anybody. As I kind of try and pay attention to all that, but I tend to, to be honest, pretty hyper focused.
Like I become not aware of anything but her
and her breathing and my focus on my thoughts of love, my thoughts of concern, my feelings of concern extending through my arm, through the tool to deliver that energy to her.
And I know [00:05:00] that sounds a little woo woo and esoteric to people, but that’s what I experienced.
And, As we’ve taught people, it’s they’ve said, oh, you’re, you’re right. Like, that sounds weird at 1st. And yet, when you’re that focused on each other, that flow of, you know, of energy definitely starts to occur. And like she said, it also tends to, um. Bring up unexpected feelings. There’s, there’s some kind of theory.
I won’t get into it. That’s more, much more advanced, but there’s some theory as to why. Um, but it’s, it’s, it’s kind of interesting. So, and sometimes just about the sensation and escape, right? You get to escape and go someplace else, right? I think Esther Correll says something like that, right? That, that sex is a place you go.
Dan (2): Yes. Not a thing you do. It’s a place you go.
Allen & Leila: Yes.
Dan (2): Is it sexual, I guess, to be flogged? Does it, is it necessarily sexual?
Allen & Leila: It’s not
sexual in and of itself necessarily. I mean, it can be. Well, that’s a complex question. Actually, it’s a good question. Go ahead. Yeah. So it, [00:06:00] it’s not innately sexual.
It’s since it’s sensual
can be, or it can be sensual, but it’s not. It also can be sexual. Like sometimes we add a vibe towards he, I should say he adds a vibe.
I’m just laying there. But,
Dan (2): Uh huh.
Allen & Leila: um, so then it does become a lot more sexual for me when I’m getting impacted and I’m, you know, have stimulation on the clitoris, like it’s a thing. It’s, it’s awesome actually.
Dan (2): Uh huh.
Allen & Leila: Like even just all the mom texts you have to do or work or mom or all the above you know you could when you’re all you can do is concentrate on what’s being delivered to you
you don’t think you you can’t think about all your to do lists you can only think about think about what’s being delivered because it’s happening at least the way we play.
It’s very rhythmic and it’s all that it’s [00:07:00] all you can feel at some point. Sometimes it takes a while to build to there,
but, um that’s another, sometimes people call that subspace. If you get to a place where you are just feeling the experience and you, um, Aren’t doing anything else,
which I guess
in some ways is a form of meditative Yeah.
Dan (2): Mm hmm.
Allen & Leila: I’ve heard people describe it like meditation. Um, and I’ve heard other submissives. I’ve listened to some podcasts about they’ll describe it as floating on a cloud.
Dan (2): Uh huh.
Allen & Leila: that, that in, when a sub gets into real subspace. And not everybody does it, not everybody does it easily, but I’ve seen it, we’ve experienced it, she gets there pretty regularly to a pretty good subspace place at this point, pretty quick,
you know, because we have a sort of ritual start, we establish a power dynamic, she knows the map, she knows the dance, and so she’s able to sink into that place pretty quick,
and so yeah, it’s not inherently Sexual, but for example, I don’t just flog as part of [00:08:00] it and I’ve never had a high end massage, but have you ever noticed they’ll constantly touch you like if they walk around the massage table, their hands on
Dan (2): They don’t let go. They don’t break contact.
Right. Uh huh.
Allen & Leila: So I use and actually learned it from a massage therapist, but I use the same technique when I do flogging, particularly with her. Like, you know, like I may, I try and maintain contact or in between floggers and I do it to music. So I kind of, and I know it well enough, like, as it’s transitioning out, I’ll actually set the flogger on her so that she bonds with the energy of the flogger.
Cause it’s just delivered contact for her and I might touch her body and I’ll almost always check in, which is. Part of the, I didn’t mention earlier, but part of when you’re doing something is a constant check
in and so it’s be like, Oh, you know, how are you doing? Oh, you’re being such a good good
Dan (2): Uh huh. Uh
Allen & Leila: You are so gorgeous laying here. Oh those stripes on your back Oh, those are beautiful red marks,
right? So There’s also a lot of that, a large part of this practice is [00:09:00] psychological,
if that makes sense. You’re making love to the mind and the body will follow, as a friend of mine
Dan (2): Yes. Uh huh. We got it.
Allen & Leila: So, you know, so that is, that’s philosophically different, right?
It’s very much getting away from the sex as a physical act, like an animal, and very much into the more cerebral, psychological, deeper meanings we associate, you know, with that kind of contact. So, yeah, it’s, it also provides a lot of, like she said, sensation. It’s just enjoyable. You’re delivering a lot of energy into someone.
And so when someone first starts, I’ll often, you know, warn them. I’ll say, look, if you’re doing this correctly, and your submissive is receiving, they have energy in their body, like a lot of it. And it often, if it’s a little sensual, a little erotic, which generally it is, She has a ton of sexual, right?
You’re again, you, you hear some therapists talk about as to probably one of them, the sexual tension that exists. Well, this is a true intense way to build up sexual tension,
right? If you’re, yeah, you see, you’re nodding your head. If you’re, if they [00:10:00] can’t hear you at home, by the way, yes, it is. So, so like when you get done, yeah, there’s all kinds of like energy in the body and you can of course turn and apply that to a intense. Sexual experience and like she mentioned the vibe Yeah, when she’s built that much up and she has all this kind of pent up energy in her and I add a vibrator um, it’s very very intense orgasms and I guess I don’t mind explaining since she brought it up I deliver harder impact and often a little more pain because again you’re up into that pleasure pain
threshold And now she’s translating crazy things like okay that kind of hurt and it kind of feels super pleasurable and oh my gosh I’m having all kinds of pleasure and the brain kind of goes Yeah
And then you really, really hard orgasm,
Dan (2): Uhhuh.
Allen & Leila: or you can’t.
That’s a possibility.
Yeah.
Dan (2): Mm-Hmm.
Allen & Leila: So yeah, it often results in very intense emotional sexual experience afterward. If that’s the kind of scene you’ve designed and intend, right?
Cause you can [00:11:00] certainly have it not do that or, or, you know, whatever, or, or we have people that practice that’s non sexual at all. We know people that just deliver an experience and they do a little discussion after care and you walk away. You know, so, so I don’t typically, I don’t do that, but we’ve, we’ve, we’ve known to talk to people where they do that kind of play. That’s not what their spouse at all. And it’s not sexual at all on
Dan (2): Good. Good. All right. When you plan a scene, how do you make it not lose? Its spontaneity and the fun of it seems a little too predictable.
Allen & Leila: Generally you’ve only mapped out the broad strokes of that. You’re going the same direction, like an outline.
Dan (2): Gotcha. Mm-Hmm.
Allen & Leila: So you’ve only kind of outlined like. Here’s, here’s the limits of what we’re not going to do. Here’s where we’re not going to go. We’re kind of going this direction. Like, um, and one of the questions I often ask isn’t necessarily so much what, and try and teach is not so much what do you want done to you, but what do you want to experience emotionally? [00:12:00] For example, do you want to experience a little bit of risk? Well, then maybe you don’t talk completely about everything you’re going to
Dan (2): Uhhuh. You know, I might say, Hey, is it okay if we do some paddles? Yeah. Okay. Well, she doesn’t actually know exactly which ones. So, you know, again, you, you, yes, you want to be specific in what you’re doing. You leave that room for unexpected delivery. One of the things we were, it was, we were preparing for this. We were kind of talking about some things.
Allen & Leila: And one of the things I realized is. Play in this arena is extremely creative.
Dan (2): Uhhuh.
Allen & Leila: She doesn’t necessarily always know every little thing or when, or what I’m going to say. You know, but yeah, it’s, it, it tends to be for me, at least as the top, I’m taking instruments or tools.
For example, if you don’t have a flogger or even a paddle, a wooden spoon when done correctly, a spatula from the kitchen, like there’s this, there’s this whole discussion on like Facebook about, you know, Like household implements,
Dan (2): Uh huh. [00:13:00] Uh huh.
Allen & Leila: to apply. Like I said, your, your Sunday necktie, you know, like, uh, a dress, you know, you can, you can use the panties as a gag.
Like you have to be careful with some of that, but you can literally use other, you know, other things. Ties are good for blindfolds and for tying up and, or scarves work well for that too.
But, um, but when you are going to. It’s with any, anything in life, right. And especially like I’ve noticed sex tools, right? Like you need to buy good quality ones
and not just cheap ones. I think he mentioned that earlier that, um,
Dan (2): Like the cheap fluggers that didn’t
Allen & Leila: yeah,
they just don’t feel good.
They’re very stingy and they don’t deliver. A very
good experience. experience. Yeah,
it wasn’t until I actually got like professionally designed floggers. Luckily places like Etsy, you know, have a lot of the source that’s actually, we go there to look up a lot of stuff. And so some [00:14:00] of the better floggers we’ve got have been off of there as opposed to like. You know sex toy shops or whatever or amazon. Yeah or amazon quite honestly So because there are people that are seriously and and are hand crafting these items and they’re high quality So yeah flogging and even paddles are a good example. Like our favorite paddle is actually a fire hose So it’s just it’s about 12 inches long and it’s folded over and on one side There’s a little bit of buckshot weight in there and it’s got a handle on it.
So somebody just It’s pretty simple. I was actually a gift,
Uh from friends of ours that, that we’d kind of introduced to this and one side is kind of soft because it’s got layers of the fire hose and air and the other side has a weight that is kind of hurtful. And so that’s it. Yeah. She doesn’t like that. I like the other side, not the weighted side.
Yeah. And so when you learn to do it properly and kind of this rotational energy where it’s kind of providing a glancing impact, it makes a really pleasant sensation,
right? When not done too hard. So you might even think of things like paddles or spanking as being. You know, more of a punishment thing and it could be, and there are people that can be fun [00:15:00] too. Yeah. There are definitely people that enter into, uh, what’s, what’s called kind of a brat, uh, right. So yeah, it’s a submissive type, but they’re kind of acting out, right.
And being playful. And it’s, but again, this is play space.
Right.
And so they might act out or say things or whatever. And like, Oh, you’re being bratty. You need to be punished. You
Dan (2): Uh huh. And she loves that. She loves responding into that, right?
Like, I haven’t learned my lesson. A
Allen & Leila: Yeah, go ahead. you can call it a fun, um. Punishment. A punishment.
Dan (2): punishment. I like that.
Allen & Leila: Yeah. Yeah. And so that, that’s an example of a, you know, kind of dynamic play space that is more unpredictable.
It’s like, oh, I want to act like a brat a little bit. Okay. What are some punishments? So you might have to kind of generally agree upon the punishment or punishment, but how that plays out. Dynamic plays out is really up to you. So, yeah, it’s you don’t necessarily have to map out every single thing in detail, but you at least need to have the broad strokes, like in our case, and I usually request that she asked me as opposed to me initiate.
[00:16:00] You know, and sometimes I’ll ask her, like, I feel like you might want something. She’ll like, yeah, okay. Yes. Would you please do this? But I feel like it’s important for the receiver to actually initiate the asking is the ideal model.
We haven’t, don’t always do that. And, and to outline at least the broad strokes of kind of what they’re wanting.
But again, that’s a discussion. That’s a negotiation. Um, and once, and like in our case, she knows the tools, she knows what they are. We don’t have to say much. She’s like, Oh, you want to be flogged tonight? Yes. That’s the extent of our negotiation.
Dan (2): uh huh.
Allen & Leila: At this point and then I either get out the pain flogger. I
Dan (2): Uhhuh
Allen & Leila: The rest of them are almost always use. So yeah.
Yeah. So that’s that’s that you don’t always like negotiations happen at first when you’re trying something new or trying maybe something more risky, you know, that might involve more pain or more psychological play or something because we have tried some other, you know, some other scenes and it was okay, but we didn’t love it as much as kind of flogging and basic impact play.
So we kind of have a A pattern that we stick to [00:17:00] around that it’s, it’s rare. We go outside of that. Unless we’re like on vacation or special occasion
Dan (2): Uhhuh.
Allen & Leila: But I think that’s what’s nice about This area is it can be anything. It’s a big umbrella, right? You can explore all kinds of different aspects of this.
It could even be something as simple as a feather on your skin
there can be all kinds of different things. that’s just something we go to all the time is flogging, but we all, there’s another memory that would be fun to share, but
Dan (2): Will you share it, please?
Allen & Leila: go ahead.
No, you, you go ahead. Okay. So I don’t know if you’re familiar with the term Nyota Mori, which you probably aren’t because people aren’t, but it’s Japanese art of eating food off of naked bodies.
Dan (2): Okay. . And it’s Japanese. Okay,
Allen & Leila: And you want more kinky stuff? It’s all All right. pretty Japanese. So we were actually, uh, we, we have some property that we go to in the Caribbean down in Belize and we were down there and it happened to be my birthday. And, um, [00:18:00] she had taken a lot of time and effort to go track down this lady who used to work at a restaurant that closed, who was Excellent at making the world’s best key lime pies I’ve ever had. She got it for my birthday and we had to drive into town on the golf cart and they handed it to us and we had to put it in a box to carry it back on the bumpy road. Anyway, it’s, it’s quite a, a romantic story, I suppose you would
say. And, um, anyway, so the night or so after we have it, I said, Hey, would you be okay if I ate a piece of pie off of your naked body?
And filmed it and she’s like, yeah, that’d be fun. So I put the pie on, on her rear end there that she’s laying down naked and I didn’t really tie her up or anything, but obviously couldn’t move too much. Cause you don’t want to make a
Dan (2): uhhuh And then I took my fork and I would run the fork down her leg
Allen & Leila: and around the pie and on her other cheek. And she’s just like, Oh,
it’s a little more than tickle. Right. But yeah, it’s a combination. Right. So yeah, you [00:19:00] know, inside of the thigh. Right. And then I would take the fork and I’d, I’d, I’d very intentionally and slowly put it down through the pie, scrape it across her body. And then, um, You know, eat the pie,
right? And I’d lick off the fork and then I’d do it again. We’ve got it on video. I think, I don’t think it’s like eight or 10 minutes of me just teasing her with the fork and eating food, you know, off of her, but that’s an example of a scene,
Dan (2): Um.
Allen & Leila: right? So that might not be one you typically think of or one that we’ve repeated to be quiet.
It was, it was fun,
but it wasn’t, I mean, kind of erotic, kind of teasing, but not necessarily sexual
Dan (2): it’s very novel for sure. Uh huh.
Allen & Leila: Well, but again, you know, variety. That’s one of the things I’ve read, too, is it’s interesting as much as we as men often, you know, say we want different positions or whatever. It’s women are the ones that on the data anyway, that tend to get more bored in long term relationships, you know,
yeah, if you’ve read.
And so it is. So that’s an example of novelty and variety and bringing newness and new energy and new experiences. I mean, we’ve [00:20:00] been, we’ve been together 37 years married for 35. So, yes, we met very young.
Dan (2): Uh huh.
Allen & Leila: um, and, and so, yes, it’s important to me, in my view, a critical part of us having a very happy and fulfilling both relationship and sexual relationship is novelty and variety.
And so that’s an example of creative. playful energy you bring to the relationship, right? So,
Dan (2): That’s great. I love it.
Leila, you talked about overcoming a purity culture. What was that
Allen & Leila: even just, um, learning how to say certain words we’ve, I’ve always been told is, you know, terrible. This. Talk about or say, even just learning like Alan will buy me books to read all the time and I never read them. But I stopped, I recovered. You’re recovering book buyer, uh, over functioner, over functioner.
Yes. I don’t know if that’s totally recovered, but you know, fair enough. [00:21:00] You’re doing good. just learning to be okay with terminology sometimes is a big deal. Just reading stories, um, erotic stories or that kind of thing was, part of my journey. Um, just, just being willing to try new things. I think is.
Dan (2): Being
Allen & Leila: He has a very creative
Dan (2): Uh huh.
Allen & Leila: Yeah, he has a very creative brain. He’s always come up with new things to try, but and I’m like, I don’t know if I’m gonna like that, but I’m willing to try,
right? Like, that’s part of, part of it, I guess.
I think, I think At some point in your marriage, you have to choose the other person. That’s a very important step.
If you don’t choose them, how, why would you even work on a marriage or why would you try to get better if you don’t choose to be with them?
Dan (2): Right.
Allen & Leila: Um, those are the conscious choice. Yeah. But I mean, do you feel like you had to deconstruct a lot of your teachings in some ways? Yeah. I [00:22:00] mean, modesty being naked. Yeah. Just, I mean, just being naked. I say that a lot. I think that’s one of the best things you can do for your marriage is be more naked time together.
That’s been a big part of our journey.
I mean, there’s a lot more. It’s, it’s been a long journey for her and frankly, deconstructing a lot of church teachings, you know, the fear and negative, the whole negativity around sex and embracing it.
The sex is for women too, you know? Yeah. I don’t, Alan, then all these groups and like all these women don’t want to have sex. I’m like, why? Sex is awesome. Like sex feels great. Sex is amazing. I’m like, and Alan always talks about it as a team sport, you know, women. Bring as much as men do to the relationship for that.
Dan (2): absolutely yes.
Allen & Leila: You know, becoming better in the bedroom is in your, is mental.
Dan (2): Mhm, Uh It’s not really a lot about physical, honestly, it’s all mental. And it’s the most best place [00:23:00] that we, I mean, when we’re having conflict or something, we go to sex for healing. That’s what we do. And I realize not everybody has that experience, right?
Allen & Leila: I mean, I’ve talked to enough, enough men and women to know that that is, Not the case, I guess. Yeah. Which always makes me sad. Cause I’m like, then how do you repair conflict?
Yeah. You know, because for us, good sex or even a good BDSM scene, like I said in the earlier, like that’s where we repair conflict
because that’s where you give and love.
But then I also have a lot of women in particular that I challenged this on say, well, that it’s not giving, it’s just taking and all that. And I’m like, okay, I, I get that. I don’t because I’m a natural giver. And that’s how we’ve always done it. Yeah. But I get that a lot of men come from the needy, wanty, you know, nice guy, validate me experience.
And
that’s just never where I was,
you know, so I, I realized our experience is a, a typical in that regard.
Dan (2): Any last thoughts or um, any last things you want to share as we [00:24:00] close this up today?
Allen & Leila: I guess I would just make an appeal, uh, particularly to those of us in long term marriages. Like I said, that I, I, you know, again, we’re in some of the same groups. And so I’ve heard just a lot of difficult stories from people. And I do think that learning concepts around consent negotiation and a willingness to bring playful energy to the relationship can be extremely healing.
Dan (2): Um.
Allen & Leila: If that makes
Dan (2): Uh huh.
Allen & Leila: Uh, for us, many ways that, uh, that fun playfulness is a place we go to heal. If there’s been riffs or breaks in the relationship, we often use these, uh, protocols and dynamics that we know to reconnect. So even if we’ve had an argument, for example, I can step out of my angry husband mode
because I don’t ever do a scene angry, but I step out of that.
I leave. That behind and I enter into a caring, responsible, dominant role for her,
Dan (2): Uh huh.[00:25:00]
Allen & Leila: if that makes sense.
Dan (2): It’s that masculine nurturing role.
Allen & Leila: Yes,
it is, which I think, to be honest, sadly lacking as I listen to a lot of women and men, you know, talk about marriage stories. And so for me, it’s a place of expressing deep love and deep respect to enter intentionally into this well framed and well defined dynamic.
And I think a lot of people struggle.
I think to get there if other parts of the, of the relationship maybe aren’t perfect. And so some, maybe some people thinking, Oh, well, you know, everything has to be perfect and you know, we each have to jump through all the expectations. You don’t like one of the things I like, at least for us and everybody’s dynamics, different, this sort of playful space is where we go to heal and connect, if
Dan (2): Um. Yes. Thank you
Allen & Leila: I guess I would say that I wasn’t too keen on most of this at the beginning.
Dan (2): Uh huh.
Allen & Leila: It was. Way outside of my comfort zone, but as if we’ve played in the space, it’s become way more comfortable and [00:26:00] enjoyable and Like he just said it’s been really good for our relationship And it’s a good place.
It’s a great place for us to go for healing and connecting. It’s very connecting Because like she said it’s very vulnerable,
Dan (2): Mm hmm.
Allen & Leila: it’s vulnerable with safety, right? You often hear those dynamics got to be safe to express. So literally you’re establishing safety through the protocols You
Dan (2): Yes. Yep.
Allen & Leila: And so again, that stuff that’s not inherent, that’s, that’s kind of how we use it and how we practice it and the things we kind of encourage and teach. And, uh, and I guess I’d say I will try almost anything once.
Dan (2): Uh huh. Uh
Allen & Leila: And how do you know if you like it or if you don’t, and
sometimes it takes three times. So
Dan (2): That’s a good attitude to have. Great. Good. Thank you. Thanks to both of you for coming on and sharing this. This is fantastic. thank you.
Allen & Leila: you’re welcome. Thank you for having us. Yeah, we appreciate it. We appreciate the work you’re doing out there.
Dan: Thank you for listening to this episode, please share it along with our apps and timidly us. And just [00:27:00] between us with their married friends. I promise they will thank you for life. If you want a more meaningful sexual and intimate connection in your marriage, I invite you to check out my, get your marriage on program.
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