Perhaps you or other Christian couples you know struggled with their first experiences with sex early in their marriage, which lead to further struggles down the road. Many of these heartbreaking experiences could have been avoided or minimized if we just had a better sexual education and less shame in discussing sexual concerns with one’s spouse.
Newlywed or not, perhaps you had a less than ideal situation in the past, or one you’re working through right now. So today I want to help you get through to your next level in your marriage by discussing a few solid principles regarding healthy sexuality.
Also, if you know someone that’s soon to be married, this would be an excellent resource to share with the soon to be bride and groom.
My guest today prefers to remain anonymous, so I’ve changed her name and removed any identifying details, but she was amazing. She interviewed me for a special project she’s doing for her church to help educate and strengthen the next generation of soon to be married couples. Isn’t that noble? She graciously allowed me to use portions of our interview for this podcast episode.
In the second half of the episode, we refer to the five phases of a sexual relationship, which might seem out of context if you’re new to this podcast. So I recommend you go listen to podcast episode #224 where we discussed this principle in depth.
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If you’re in an otherwise happy marriage, but wish things were better when it came to sex or intimacy, or find yourself in a nearly predictable patterns that drive the two of you apart over and over again in your marriage, we encourage you to register for our upcoming cohort of men’s and women’s only coaching groups. They are fast-paced, in-depth, and designed to challenge you and push you. It’s limited to just a small group of men or women, and the next cohort won’t start until the fall. Registration closes Sunday, May 4!
Transcript
This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors or inaccuracies. For the most accurate and complete experience, we recommend listening to the full podcast episode.
Episode 238
Dan: [00:00:00] It’s biological. There’s nothing weird about being a sexual being, and we’re scared of our sexuality sometimes too much because it could be indulgent, but it doesn’t mean it has to be indulgent. It can be very elevating instead.
Before we begin this episode, I wanna tell you that next week we begin our next cohort for a men’s and women’s small group coaching program. And there’s still time to join if you want to, if you’re in an otherwise happy marriage, but wish things were better when it came to sex or intimacy, or find yourself in a nearly predictable patterns that drive the two of you apart over and over again in your marriage.
Or you just wanna take all the good you already have. And just bring it to the next level as it is. This program is for you. It’s fast-paced, in depth, and designed to challenge you and push you. It’s limited to just a small group of men or women, and the next cohort won’t start until the fall. So now’s the time to get a jump on this opportunity.
Links to the program are on my website at Get Your Marriage on.com or check out the links in the show notes for more details. Now I read an excellent book a few years ago. It’s for parents talking to their kids about sex. There was a chapter towards the end of the book titled Honeymoon Horror Stories, which really caught my eye and changed the way I think about the importance of getting and teaching our next generation a solid sex education as part of their research for the book.
The authors collected many true stories of Christian couples about their struggles with their first experiences with sex and other sexual struggles earlier in their marriage. As I read these sad stories, I realized many of these heartbreaking experiences could have been avoided or minimized if we just had a better sexual education or work to dispel the role that shame has, especially in discussing sexual concerns with one spouse.
Newlywed or not, perhaps you have a quote unquote horror story of your own from your past, or one that you’re working through right now. So today I wanna help you get through to your next level in your marriage by discussing a few solid principles regarding healthy sexuality. If you know someone that’s soon to be married also, this would be an excellent resource to share with the soon to be bride and groom as well.
My guest today prefers to remain anonymous, so I’ve changed her name and removed any identifying details, but she was amazing. She interviewed me for a special project she’s doing for her church to help educate and strengthen the next generation of soon to be married couples. Isn’t that noble? So she graciously allowed me to use portions of our interview for this podcast episode.
By the way, later on in the episode, we’re gonna refer to the five phases of a sexual relationship, which might seem out of context if you’re due to this podcast. So I recommend you go listen to podcast episode number 224, which we released just a couple months ago where we discussed this principle in depth.
It’s a good episode to listen to and review also. Alright, let’s talk about some fun and juicy topics about healthy married sex education.
Janice: Awesome. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. So as, as I mentioned, I, I reached out to our Catholic church where we go to ask if I could share some of this kind of material so I’m so glad to be able to bring something from someone who is Christian, but also has thought a lot about this. ’cause I don’t think there’s a lot of people who’ve thought a lot about it coming into these programs.
So,
Dan: well, thank you. Thank you very much. It’s about really helping people find the goodness, the joy, the freedom, the peace, I believe at its core, I.
True sexuality drives people to become more honest, more faithful, more benevolent, more kind. it inspires virtue. Like true sexuality drives us to become more godly in, in our, in our walk. So I think that’s what it’s all intended to be.
Janice: That’s fantastic and like I’m starting to realize that now that I’m like paying more attention.
Mm-hmm. Like I’ve been reading David Arch’s book and realizing like, oh, the smallest little interactions and maneuvers bring out all of this, like questions about your integrity and what are you scared of, and their reaction and all this. Yeah. It’s there in the smallest interactions. Yes. Tension.
Dan: Yes, absolutely.
And absolutely can
Janice: grow your virtue that way,
Dan: Yep. That’s right.
Janice: So, starting off, when you hear about this topic, you know, advice for people about to get married, what’s like, the first thing you think of is like, if you only learned one thing. Uh huh. What’s important thing you’d want them to hear
Dan: Okay. It’s not like I haven’t put a lot of thought into this. I think I’ve put too much thought into this, that coming up with one thing is hard, but here’s where I [00:05:00] would say it is this, Throw away everything that you think you’ve been taught and learned about it, and make the basis for what would make a good sex life as to what is gonna work for the two of you in your marriage.
Because, uh, a man, for example, might read, um, the best way to bring a woman to orgasm is through oral sex, and she hates oral sex. And. Then he’s gonna be frustrated. Like, wait, you’re not fitting this mold of what I was handed is what makes a good sex life. I mean that as an example, but you get the idea. We have these ideas Take the good. But remember the ultimate source of how to build a great relationship. A great sexual relationship with your spouse is for the two of you to figure out, because you two are gonna be very unique. Your own sexuality. What you find erotically interesting is unique as your fingerprints.
Like there’s no one else like you that has that same interest. Same with your spouse, and you’re trying to merge these two different personalities. Two different worldviews. Two different upbringings into one to create a true marriage, a true union. So general advice or statistics where they interview lots of people and create generalizations to extrapolate information, although it can be useful.
Ultimately the true source is gonna be what you create together as a spouse. So that means you don’t compare your sex life to other couples sex lives. ’cause if in your marriage you have sex, I’m making this up, let’s say three times a month, and that is fantastic and you’re both very happy with it, that that’s all that matters compared to you know, so and so they’re having it three times a week.
you can’t do that because you’re not them. They have very different life stage, careers, bodies, biology, there’s maybe past abuse, like there’s so much that goes into who we are that ultimately you wanna forge a sexual relationship with just your spouse that works for you and your spouse.
Janice: That is a great place to start. Makes me think of, like Emily Naski says, people ask her all the time, like, how much do people, like how many times and she’s like, I don’t like to answer that question. ’cause yes, I don’t want you to do anything with that information ’cause you’re gonna use it to judge yourselves and like don’t.
Dan: Yeah. Not helpful at all. Yes, you do. What works for your, you and your spouse of course. You wanna build it in good, healthy ways, but build something together you both wanna do.
Janice: That is a great place to start off.
So in the six month window before the wedding takes place what are some things the couple can do individually or together that would be helpful for, you know, after the wedding? Right, about anatomy or talking about meanings? What do you think?
Dan: Mm-hmm. So I’m reading your notes and you talk about like books like Come As You Are by Dr.
Emily Naski. That’s a great book. And there’s other really good resources like that too. I would recommend at this phase, sticking to something that’s gonna be more, scientifically sound, medically sound you’re gonna find in this space. A lot of people have an opinion. There’s lots of opinions, but at this phase, you kind of wanna start with facts.
What are, what are some, some facts? So, for example. That’s a good book. There are many others too. that being said, there’s also gonna be a lot of books that might, uh, you might disagree with, or advice that’s gonna be kind of d different. So understanding that, uh, it’s like a buffet.
Take what works for you and you can leave the rest. And second is you there? There, I think a lot of couples, six months towards marriage, there’s gonna be a sense of overwhelm. Like I have to digest and understand all of this in that time. And if you’re coming, towards understand your sexual relationship with your future spouse or yourself with a sense of overwhelm, I think it’s gonna have a negative effect on your, your enjoyment of this wonderful part of your relationship.
So, don’t do anything if it’s gonna cause more overwhelm. So like scale it back a little bit. Okay. Next thing is very difficult advice and that is. Learn how to talk about sex before your sexual relationship. There’s a story of a couple, they didn’t talk about it before.
Now they’re on their honeymoon and they get experience, their first sexual experiences together, and there’s so much disappointments on both sides because of They just didn’t talk about it. He had an expectation. She had an expectation, but they felt this taboo nature of talking about what things are gonna be.
So, in this particular story, the husband just, they’re so excited. They’re so excited. It’s gonna be, they’ve been looking forward to this time for so long, and he thought. she would do this particular sexual act on him, something he’s been daydreaming about for years, right? All his buddies tell him how good it is and everything, and so he requests it and she is so disgusted and turned off by this thing [00:10:00] that he wants her to do sexually and.
he freaks out. It’s like, oh, no, what did I just do? I, I don’t want her think I’m some deviant or something, like, I’m this horrible sex monster or whatever. In the end, I didn’t talk about it. So learning how to talk about it, and it’s completely fine to have an adult conversation about. Your viewpoints on sex.
What, what you think understand too, and give yourself some grace here because chances are both of you have little experience or no experience having a sexual relationship and how to build a good one. So, a lot of what you’re gonna talk about is gonna be a lot of conjecture. I think it’s gonna be this, like for example, husbands and brides to be, might talk about how often should we be having sex And she might say.
Well, of course, every day. I think that sounds wonderful. And it’s like, yeah, you’re right. Every day does sound great, but you have nothing to base it on. Right? And then when the realities of life set in and you’re not having sex every day. I am just using this as an example. You can’t turn to the, but you said, you know, before we were married that we’d be having sex every day.
Just understand that, there’s things as humans, things we know, things we know we don’t know, and things we don’t know that we don’t know and how to build a sexual relationship. A lot falls into the things we don’t know. We don’t know category because we haven’t experienced it yet. We haven’t lived it yet.
We haven’t faced the challenges. That are upcoming. ’cause you can’t anticipate those yet. So give yourself a lot of grace for the things you don’t know. My next bit of advice, let me just say it this way, I, I’m gonna talk about orgasm for a moment.
Orgasm is an important part of a sexual relationship, but it’s not the only important thing about sexual relationship. There are so many things that are important about a sexual relationship. Generally speaking, men orgasm much easier, more naturally just because of anatomy, testosterone biology. boys can’t help but touch themselves even as a little boy when they use the bathroom.
There’s a very strong, body, brain connection when it comes to this part of their body. And, In contrast, a lot of women, their genitals are more internal, not external. So, touching themselves in a pleasurable way for many women, isn’t intuitive like it is for a man, understanding how bodies work and how sexual pleasure works for each individual is gonna be a little bit unique.
But generally speaking, men are faster compared to women. six minutes on average for a man, 30 minutes on average for a woman of stimulation to reach orgasm. So if you don’t have that model understood, going into building a sexual relationship and 10 minutes into your sexual encounter, you feel frustrated with yourself that she hasn’t orgasmed yet.
You think something’s wrong with you. Well, nothing has gone wrong. It’s just you don’t understand the facts yet. So my own daughter, before she gets married, I would invite her and counsel her to learn how her body works and for her to learn how to give herself an orgasm before her sexual experience with her husband, not as a way of, of self-stimulation or masturbation out of an indulgent energy.
but really out of a self body learning energy, and I think that’s very healthy for one’s development. because how, I’m speaking from a woman’s perspective, how would you ever communicate to your husband how you want to be touched or how you like to be touched? And yet expect him to know how to touch you when he hasn’t had your anatomy, or, had any experience for that matter.
So you can do both of yourselves a huge favor if the wife learns how to orgasm on her own in such a way that she can teach that. And. Demonstrate it, explain it. Guide her poor husband who’s trying to figure it out and it’s, it’ll, it’ll give your marriage a huge boost. It’ll fast forward sexual fulfillment for both of you by years.
If you can go into your marriage, understanding that, that that component.
Janice: That makes a lot of sense from what I’ve heard you talk about and Dr. Jennifer from Lisa and Fife talk about, I don’t know how familiar you are with like, the particulars of Catholic teachings. But the short version is that like, that is not allowed for any reason.
You think I wanted to ask you about? I just, I just put that in. Mm-hmm. Like if someone feels as a Christian or Catholic, that it is wrong to learn anything about their sexual mind or body functioning. Yeah. How
Dan: do
Janice: counsel them? Yeah. So,
Dan: first of all, I would never counsel someone to do something that against their religious values or beliefs.
Otherwise, it’s working against you. So if [00:15:00] that is the case. perhaps you wait until after you’re married to explore it together and just take a slower approach and that would be perfectly fine. I think there’s a lot of, sentiment around is it even okay to touch your own body? Is it okay to even arouse yourself?
And I think that’s good meaning because one could do that in a very indulgent spirit and, to indulge to me means, you’re participating in something that’s contributing to your less than ideal self. It’s, it’s your lesser self, whereas, I believe you can do the same activity but in a different energy that’s designed to elevate you and elevate your marriage.
And so there’s different schools of thought around that, but ultimately, I want you to choose what you think is gonna be in line with your values and make it work there first. But understand that ultimately I believe you want your sexuality to bless your marriage and bless who you are. It’s to make you feel whole.
It’s to elevate you and, giving yourself a little bit of permission to understand like, we wanna know how our digestive system works, how our circulatory system works. You wanna know your talents and how you’re good at art or singing or. Processes and computers or whatever it might be. Why not learn how your sexual functioning works?
It’s biological. There’s nothing weird about being a sexual being, and we’re scared of our sexuality sometimes too much because it could be indulgent, but it doesn’t mean it has to be indulgent. It can be very elevating instead.
Janice: I think that’s a great thing to share and the idea of learning together and like giving the pace and the time to, to allow that seems like a great practice.
And then the other thing you just mentioned about learning how to talk together about sex, I was wondering if you had Yeah. Any further suggestions about how people can do that? ’cause it, it might feel like, I don’t know how to get started on getting started. It is just like a hard thing to Oh man.
Dan: It is so hard.
It is so hard. So, a little bit about me. I’m the quintessential good boy. My wife was a quintessential good girl. And so we didn’t talk about sex. We had kids. We knew how to, how to make babies, but how to build a sexual relationship. We both wanted to participate in, I, I don’t think we could even say the word sex out loud without blushing or feeling a little bit dirty and, Just life and busyness and everything kind of, for us, sex was more of a back burner thing or something we did once in a while and it was laced with innuendo. ’cause we couldn’t, we felt dirty saying like, what we really wanna do. It’s like, do you wanna, you know, do the, you know what, instead of Right. What for what?
It was until 13 years in our marriage, I had a, I had lunch with a friend. And he opened up to me about his sex life with his wife and a lot of dudes that tend to brag about their sexual prowess. This was not a dude conversation. This conversation was him basically telling me that when he and his wife really focused on improving their sexual relationship, everything else in their life improved.
They communicate better, they sleep together better, their parent together, better like. Things got better because their sex life started to click. So he is telling me all the fun things they’re doing, very adventurous, but with the intent to help me understand that there’s so much goodness. It’s not something to be, to be ashamed of or hide behind or think that it’s less than or like the necessary evil.
You do it just a little bit just to get by, but whatever. And then I had a decision to make. Do I tell my wife about this conversation with a friend because it seemed really meaningful. He was really sincere and I wanted what he had, and that was a hard conversation. So people ask me all the time, how do you talk about sex, in a way that’s not stress inducing or you feel anxious about it?
And my answer is. You can’t, it just is. But you learn how to get over the anxiety of it. You learn how to get over the, the nerves of it. You learn how to like, yes, I do feel nervous. I do feel anxious talking about it, but although I feel that way, I’m gonna override that. Because this is more important. And over time I think you get better and better at it.
So will ever not feel awkward? No. But your ability to deal with the awkwardness increases through practice.
Janice: And I think that these kinds of things, just like knowing and expecting there to be some awkwardness or something can be a big help. ’cause it, you’re like, oh, it doesn’t mean something’s going wrong.
Right? Like this is normal.
Dan: Yeah. Yeah. Uhhuh,
Janice: So then the third question, or the wedding won’t be the se first sexual encounter for all couples. Our preset, about 50% of them might be living together beforehand, but for some people they’re not. so what’s helpful for couples to know as they’re navigating this for like the very first time?
Dan: Yeah. Uh, very practical things is, it’s kind of messy. we didn’t know [00:20:00] it was gonna be messy our first time on our wedding night, and so I was surprised by the messiness factor. We weren’t prepared. So, get a towel and lay it on the bed first.
That helps. Another thing too is, friction doesn’t feel good, and so lubrication is great. Yeah. Every drug store sells, they call it personal lubricant. and there’s some really nice products these days made from natural ingredients, edible ingredients. Why would you put anything in your body that you wouldn’t put in your mouth anyway?
Like really good products. so you put this on your body, before. intercourse and it’s just to take things a little bit slipperier, a little less friction to make things feel a little bit better for both. So that’s, that’s important. it’s okay to feel nervous your first time. Also understand.
When it’s your first time, chances are he’s going to come. He’s gonna ejaculate within two minutes and it’s gonna be over, and she’s gonna be like, that was it. Because I, most people getting married, I’m assuming they’re in their twenties or thirties. This is their first sexual experience and their body is so revved up for this.
generally speaking. it adds to a man’s excitement and so it’s a very short experience. So if you’re expecting something, whereas like we’re making love all night long, unless he has extreme self-control and is going very, very slowly, probably won’t be that way your first time.
It’s just set the expectation. Another thing too is, this is unique to men. They experience what’s called a refractory period, so this is more sexual biology here. Human sexuality is a man’s ability to regain an erection, to respond to sexual stimulation, and to have another ejaculation. There’s a delay.
It’s not like a machine gun where you can fire after, you know, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. It’s not the way it, the body works After ejaculation, the series of hormones and brain chemicals and everything puts the body in a state of rest. and that period of rest can last as short as 15 minutes to a half hour to an hour.
And as you age, that refractory period increases. Sometimes it might be 24 hours or even longer for older men. So understanding this will kind of really help you have a more, realistic perspective going into the sexual encounter. So if it’s your first time, you have your towel, you have your lubricant, and you just kind of understand this is gonna be quick.
A very, another very important thing to understand is for some women, intercourse is painful. And in fact, painful intercourse. Is three times higher in religious women than non-religious women. When you look at broad studies of American surveyed which indicates there is a psychological component to all of this, and it’s the idea that this was wrong and now it’s okay, the body, it’s like, let’s say I was gonna punch you in the shoulder right now.
What would your body language, what would your body do if you knew I was gonna punch you in your right shoulder right now? How, what, how would you, yeah. You just did it. You shifted your body, you kind of tensed up that shoulder muscle to prepare for impact. Right. Our bodies do this instinctively, you don’t have to think about it, is what I mean.
It’s kind of automatic. the muscles around the vagina and vulva will do the same thing. Anticipating penetration. They will tighten up and you can’t penetrate or it’s not gonna feel good if you try to push through something that’s hard. So if you are finding yourself in a situation, this is your first time and you’re, it’s, but it’s involuntary, right?
You can’t just will your muscles to relax easily. It’s not that easy. Understand that nothing has gone wrong with you. You’re not broken. It doesn’t mean it’s great, but this is a common response that many women experience. It’s painful intercourse. So, there are many therapies designed to help you with this.
A lot of them are actually breathing techniques where you actually learn how to relax those muscles, and you basically retrain your muscles and your body that this is okay, and this is safe Now. Because it’s a training process. This is okay. If you try to force it, even though you’re tight and it’s painful, you can actually reinforce, your body is reinforcing the idea that this is not safe and it’s counterproductive.
So I highly recommend that couples be open to that. We’re gonna try intercourse, but it may not. Work for us if this happens. So we have a plan B or a plan C and just commit to each other. We love each other no matter what. We’re gonna figure this out, even if [00:25:00] it takes a few years or months, however long it’ll take.
We’re committed to each other. We’ll figure this out. This is gonna take a lot of patience on both sides if that happens. One last tip is, generally speaking, couples that make the focus of her pleasure first and then his, that kind of a pattern, they call it, she comes first, right? It’s very chivalrous that applied to the bedroom is generally best for couples, primarily because biologically women take longer to.
Get aroused and to orgasm. Men are shorter, so if you prioritize her pleasure first, then his second, that usually becomes a great pattern for couples to go. So your very first encounter, slow down. You might feel nervous. take your time and just go slow. And enjoy her. Last thing I wanna mention, okay, I said that last time.
So another last thing I wanna mention. if you don’t have a good, if you don’t have a solid sexual education, like I, I didn’t have a great solid sexual education, this might be a surprise, but the woman’s sexual center is not her vagina. A lot of men think that because a lot of our sex education in school and society is very male centric, and you hear phrases like men have a penis and women have a vagina.
And it’s very true. Women do have a vagina. But when we say that we think the equivalent of a penis is a vagina and that’s not. Completely accurate. Her sexual center is an organ called a clitoris, and it’s fascinating. A clitoris is, um, we can talk about that a little more if you want to, but essentially, it has just as much erectile tissue as a penis.
It has, more sensitivity to sexual stimuli than a penis. It’s, it’s an amazing organ, but it’s more internal. and if you wanna stimulate the clitoris and stimulate it, well, once she’s aroused, with her guidance. Of course it’s visible. Um, where if you’re looking at a vulva, it’s the opening towards the belly button
where the vulva, opening kind of comes back together, it forms like a, wishbone shape and it’s at the top. stimulating this area is equivalent to stimulating the penis, the tip of the penis. So very gentle, very slow. You don’t want anything direct use lots of lubrication and often. Indirect stimulation is great, which means you’re gonna stimulate the area around it gently.
And as the clitoris becomes more aroused, it can handle more direct stimulation. It’s like a formal dinner where you have lots of forks and knives and everything and they bring out the first course. Which fork do you use first? The outside most one, right?
Think of that about that. But insect. So you’re gonna use the outside most areas first. So you’re gonna stimulate far from the center of the clitoris around, get that warmed up as you gradually move in more towards the center. And Use light touch for that. So that usually results in much better sexual experiences for her and so that you can both have.
And another tip on that is never penetrate her until she is highly aroused. Too many couples rush intercourse. They wanna get right into it. They’re excited, he’s hard, he’s erect, he’s ready to go, but, but just because he’s hard and she might be a little bit a woman lubricate, generally, that’s a very natural part of her arousal process.
But just because she’s beginning to lubricate, does not mean she’s highly aroused yet. So, if you can think about arousal on a scale of zero to 10, zero is no arousal. Around a three, he gets, an erection. She starts to lubricate and then, you don’t wanna penetrate until you’re at least a seven for her.
He might be at a seven for a very long time. It might feel like way long, but don’t go in yet until she’s at a seven. And the reason is, as her body gets more aroused and that clitoral structure that I mentioned fills with blood, it gets more engorged. That internal structure, forms like a cuff.
Think of like an air pressure cuff that they put to get your vitals when you go to a doctor’s visit, right? It forms a cuff around the vagina. And, As that gets more aroused and starts to swell, then when the penis finally enters her vagina, the penis actually helps stimulate the backside of the clitoris.
So penetration is more pleasurable for her. So delay penetration until she absolutely cannot wait for you to come in, and she’s begging for you to please come in. That’s the time finally to penetrate. Don’t rush penetration.
Janice: This is so unbelievably helpful. Like just, I’m so glad to Have this, this is so helpful. That’s perfect. So for the question four, this is kind of going off the podcast episode you have about the five [00:30:00] phases of the sexual relationship. So, right after marriage and phase one as this is often like a, a happier, easier phase. but what might be some challenges that people can encounter in that stage and what, what do you do for those in phase one?
Dan: Great. just to be clear, phase one is. Things are all new. It’s creation, things are great. Usually lasts a year, 18 months, two years, things tend to come easy. And it’s, I think by divine design, things come easy. At the beginning of any new project that you do, any creative project, there’s an enormous amount of creative energy at the beginning, right?
You, you feel like you can stay up late at night if you need to, to get things done, especially in the beginning phases. so creating a new, marriage, a new union of two souls coming together, it’s no different. A tremendous amount of creative energy. So capitalize on that. This is a great time to soak in as much and utilize that as much as you can, but it’s not meant to last.
It’s meant to break down on purpose by divine design, in my opinion, because as it breaks down and as you get into the next phases, there’s certain lessons, spiritual lessons that are for you to learn that you wouldn’t have learned if you only had. The creation. I kinda liken it to the Garden of Eden, which we kind of idolize Adam and Eve.
Foods given to them, they have to work for it. . There’s no thorns, no weeds. Everything is so easy. They’re in a state of bliss and innocence. But guess what? There is no opposition. There isn’t any challenges. So ultimately it didn’t provide for their ultimate growth. That’s why they were given a choice, right?
With, with the fruit. And, you know, Satan tempted them and, and we have that whole story too, but I think it’s, remember we kind of idolize this honeymoon phase, and I want you to know that it’s wonderful and great, but better things are to come. Just because you left the Garden of Eden doesn’t mean you’re lost.
Right. There’s, there’s so much goodness for you out there still to elevate you through all this. So that’s, that’s one particular way to kind of think about that.
Janice: I. Yeah, so I would like your answer on phase two, like what you call like the sweatpants phase when there’s,
Dan: yeah, let’s talk about sweatpants phase,
Janice: what that is, the challenges there, uhhuh.
Dan: Phase two is the sweatpants face. This is when you’re like,
Janice: Hmm,
Dan: what initially attracted you to your spouse? You’ll find to be very annoying. For example, one thing I find very attractive about my wife is she’s quiet, she’s reserved, she’s very introverted, she’s mysterious, and that is so attractive to me.
Like, oh, I wanna know her. ’cause once I get to know her, she has this incredible depth to her. Between the two of us, she’s also really laid back. I am more of the type A, let’s go, let’s do the do do. And she’s, she’s more of the laid back, which I find very attractive until we need to get to the airport on time or until we need to go on stage and present.
Or until right. All of a sudden those very things that I found attractive in her are now liabilities. But now that you’re married for a while, you start to see, ah, these are things I don’t like about you. And they are annoying. And so most people in the sweatpants phase, they try to change their spouse. If only you’re more like me.
If only you’re more on time. If only you’re a little more organized, if only you’re more outgoing or whatever it might be. We try to change each other. And what that all that does is drive each other apart even more. And sexually, this shows up too. This is where like, how come I’m always the one initiating?
Not always, but frequently. Right. How come, uh, you’re not open to X, Y, or Z like I am? Generally speaking, men are more open to sexual novelty that is. Fresh, new experiences, new positions, new locations, new techniques, whatever than women are. I think there’s a biological reason for that. But, so they’re like, how come you’re not open to these things?
How come you don’t wanna do those things? And she’s like, what’s wrong with the kind of sex we’re having? Am I not good enough for you? So that’s definitely the sweat pence phase. And part of this phase too is you’re kind of, you, you kind of create rhythms and you, you create a routine.
And it might be out of survival that you’re in these routines. ’cause you’re often in career building, child rearing, all these things that demand an enormous amount of your energy. You don’t have that energy to put into your relationship anymore. So sex can easily go on the back burner in that phase. And I wouldn’t say anything’s gone wrong, but you need to pay attention to that this has happened and that sets you up for phase three.
Janice: That’s great. So. Then what, what is phase three
Dan: three is when you realize, yeah. [00:35:00] That you don’t like being in phase two anymore. I’m sick of the routine. I’m sick of the every day the, I’m sick of the sweatpants. Can we get back to something a little more sexier, some a little more?
Alive between us. And that encourages our development. It pushes on our development, it pushes on our weaknesses where we could otherwise put off and ignore for a long time. But now you can’t anymore. It’s time to address them and that’s within ourselves. And that’s like, I don’t like the fact that I’m always pushing and driving my wife to be like me.
I don’t like how I push her to try sexual things that she doesn’t wanna do. It’s not good for our marriage that I do, that. It’s finally addressing those things. That’s like an example. Another example from the other direction would like. I don’t like that I’ve put my sexuality on the back burner. I don’t like the way I’ve prioritizing my life.
I wanna do this things a little better. I want to claim more of me, and especially in the bedroom, more. I want to feel alive. I wanna build a sexual relationship where I want to be, and I just don’t do it for him or do it because it’s been three days, I wanna do it because it’s where I want to be.
So that, like phase three invites us to really think about how we’re doing things and do better. And I really don’t think you can skip phases. It, we do go through phases and you have to go through one before you get to the other, but just understand when you’re experiencing sexual frustrations in a relationship, nothing has gone wrong.
Things are always meant to break down. To help you build and create something new. It’s like we talked about creation, right? And there was a fall, and there’s always an atonement. There’s a redemption process, and we go through these phases in our own relationship with our spouse over and over again.
We have a creation, we have a fall. And in that fall we’re like, I don’t like this. I wanna change it. It gives us the impetus and the energy to build something even better than how it started. And that’s that the redemptive phase, and we repeat this over and over in our marriage.
Janice: That’s fantastic. and when I heard that episode, I couldn’t believe how Yeah, exactly.
It mapped onto like what we’d been going through. It was Quite something to hear that. And I also loved when I’ve heard you describe as, you know, having the background in computer programming and thinking about systems Yeah. And how one thing will generate another, but then it only takes, it takes one person.
To do something different, to change that system. And I thought that was really helpful. ’cause it seems like a lot of these problems that people get into are like vicious cycles where your response will make it worse or like just keep regenerating it. So I’d love to talk about from that system’s perspective, what are some problematic cycles people can get into and how can you break out of them?
Dan: Yeah. There’s lots of patterns. Let me highlight one in time permitting a second common one. It’s this pattern that, , and there’s an idea both people in the marriage have, is that sex is for him. And when you have a marriage where they think sex is really for the husband, rather than something shared equally for both of them, this kind of a cycle happens.
He wants sex. She resists because it feels like a duty who wants to do something? It’s like, it’s like another child needing it, right? And finally it builds up enough tension that she gives in yet the sex is hollow. Because it is lack compassion. She’s like, here’s my body, but you can’t have my heart or my soul ’cause I just need you to get off my back.
And he feels a little condescended too, a little like, you know, like, I’m just throwing you a bone. And now she feels like, he owes her something ’cause she put out for him. And, so he feels like he can’t win. And so the cycle then, uh, continues by him. trying to win her favor so that he can have sex again with her.
And then the cycle goes around and around. So this is one common pattern that we see, and it can look differently in different couples. That’s like one example of a cycle. Cycles to me are like Ferris wheels, right? You get on one car and just goes and round and round and round, and all it takes is one person to do a move differently.
Often we’re in cycles because we’re in reaction to what our spouse did. Spouse did something. I react by doing that, and they react to our reaction in a very predictable way. So we, it’s, it’s a chain reaction of reaction, reaction, reaction. we pause just long enough to evaluate how we’re going to respond instead of just automatically react.
And that can make the biggest difference. So in this example, let’s say I’m coaching the husband, I would help him see how he is contributing. I. To having a low desired wife. ’cause he might think if only my wife had the same sexual desire as I did fix her. Right? But he doesn’t see that it’s actually good judgment that she doesn’t want to have sex with him.
It’s actually smart that she doesn’t want, ’cause she’s who wants to participate in a system where it feels so empty and, and hollow. so no wonder why she doesn’t want to do that. So he needs to understand his behavior [00:40:00] and his energy he’s bringing. where he is, contributing to that cycle. And once he kind of understands that, it breaks that old pattern and they can set up a much healthier, virtuous cycle for both of them.
Now, if I was coaching her in that, I would help her see how, her participation specifically in how she is treat sex, like an obligation or a duty, kind of having that mindset. It interferes with her ability to claim something that’s always been hers, but relegated to someone else. And once she’s a little more empowered and has her own voice in the matter, she can say to him, I love you and I want to have sex with you, but I don’t want to have that kind of sex with you.
That’s not the kind of sexual relationship I want to participate in, that I think would be good for me. It won’t be good for us. I wanna choose this differently. And that will completely change the system too in that relationship.
Janice: That sounds great. And I know you mentioned one other.
Dan: The other common pattern is. Validation seeking behavior in sex.
And it is this idea, and I I see this a lot in higher desired spouses, I’m gonna use stereotypes again. If you look at the broad population, generally men have higher sexual interests than women. Although in individual marriages there’s tons of variation. So if you’re in a marriage where you’re a woman with a higher desire for sex, I want to reassure you, first of all, nothing is wrong.
You’re not a freak. There’s absolutely normal and it’s healthy, it’s great, and congratulations. It just means, adapt this to your dynamic. But for sake of illustration, I’m gonna use the example where the husband has the higher sexual desire and she has a lower sexual desire. And I always mean that in relative terms.
I should clarify. It’s like saying I’m taller than my wife, but I could have married a woman who’s taller than me. She could have married a man shorter than her. It’s sexual desire is always relative to your spouse. So I don’t like using absolutes like high desire, low desire. It’s always high desire, lower desire relative to each other.
Okay, that was a sidebar. Now for the main thing, higher desired spouses sometimes are validation seeking in sex. And what I mean by that is they get a sense of who they are by how well their wife is responding to them sexually. If I’m having a really bad day in a down day, and the one thing that would cheer me up is if my wife strolls in the bedroom with that really red hot lingerie.
And with that look on her face like she is ready to have some fun with me, it would put me over the moon. And I want that. And I seek that as what would fill me. Now we know this from human behavior. Anytime you look for something outside of you to fill something that’s a hole inside of you, you’ll always seek that thing outside of you.
But it’ll never actually fill you because you’re the only person that can actually fill. The holes in yourself. But we don’t think that way. We think, our spouse should do this. So we turn, we use a lot of strategies to control what we wanna get out of our spouse. I want my wife to be more sexual with me so that ultimately it’s ’cause I don’t feel good about myself.
I want her to do it so I feel better about myself in it. So I’m gonna control her. I’m gonna try to manipulate her. I’m gonna say things. I’m gonna guilt her. I’m gonna pressure her to kind of get what I think I want, which is sex with me, so that I’ll feel better about me. but it’s not sustainable.
I think Disney’s Beauty and the Beast, if you’ve seen that film illustrates this principle so beautifully in their story where the plot is beast is gonna stay the beast forever until he gets a girl to fall in love with him. Before the last Rose Petal falls, I. Bell comes into the castle after like years and years without guests.
Everyone thinks this is it. This is the opportunity. And the beast does everything to control Bell, to capture her, to force her to have dinner with him. And he needs her to fall in love with him, right? So he is gonna make her fall in love with him. And the story’s beautiful because at the most critical moment, the last rose petals about to fall.
The beast, lets bell go. And everyone’s like, whatcha doing? You can’t do that. Right? Because the beast finally realized something about love. Unless it’s freely chosen, it can’t be freely given. So when there’s something we want from another spouse, sex, I want you to have sex with me. And we want it so bad that we control that they give us sex.
We create this situation like Beast trying to make Belle fall in love with you and it’ll never ever work. The only time it’ll actually work is when the beast had the maturity to let Bell go at great personal risk, knowing that’s the only way Bell could [00:45:00] actually have a chance. Of a remote possibility of loving.
And because it’s Disney, she chooses him. And in the end, the spell ISS broken and it’s great, but there’s real risk there because Bell could legitimately choose. I don’t want to go back there, sorry. And. that would also be okay, in the end. So there’s an enormous amount of risk in sexual relationships when we want something badly and we’re not getting it.
And to have the maturity to calm down enough, calm the heck down, as I like to say, within ourselves, to settle ourselves down, to give our spouses complete freedom. When you can actually do that that’s the only chance you’ll ever have of a thriving sexual relationship.
Janice: That is wonderful. Yeah, a beautiful way of like leading up to the bigger meanings that are gonna have such, such an impact on, you know, your life over the, the decades. Uh, a professor of mine in grad school edited a, an addition of Paradise Lost, and then the line where Adam and Eve are talking about whether they’re gonna garden together or apart, and Eve wants to go apart, and Adam says, thy stay not free, absent thee more.
And my professor glossed that as the truest line in the poem, Uhhuh.
Dan: Uh huh Uhhuh. Yeah. If you
Janice: stay freely, you’re even more far away from me than if you were physically, you know, far away.
Dan: Yes. What you were saying. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You got that. Yep.
Janice: I love Beauty the beast also. So then I think just a, a very, a quick last thing to end on because it was very Yeah, insightful that there’s gonna be a lot of overwhelm for the couple in the six months before the wedding.
Lost things to think about. But like, why is it worth learning about this? Why isn’t this just a process that happens naturally, you know, like this is something that feels good, people like it.
Why doesn’t it just happen? Why do we have to like learn about it and figure things out? And like, why is it. Necessary and helpful to invest some time learning and like the kinds of things that you share,
Dan: oh, such a great question. So on one level, sex is completely natural. Like we’re sexual beings from the moment we’re conceived. There’s nothing weird about that and it’s, it’s natural to be drawn sexually, have sexual interests and things like that. But what is not natural is learning how to love.
Learning how to love is something that takes a lifetime. And learning how to love through your sexuality is, is hard. So if you’re like, how come this doesn’t come naturally? How come I’m not orgasming? How come I. we have differences With sex. How come, others seem to be getting along so much better than we do?
I want you to know that, um, nothing has gone wrong. It’s actually an invitation for you to dig a little deeper into your best or more true self and to draw that out. It’s like going to a gym. We’re not all born with big mega muscles and strength. We have resistance in life that gives us the impetus to grow stronger muscles, but we have a choice.
We can choose your version of hard. I encourage you to choose a version of hard where you’re gonna address whatever sexual concerns or differences come up. Now, even though it’s painful because. Then you don’t have to deal with the pain lighter in life. It’s kinda like people who don’t work out that much as they age, they don’t have as much muscle mass.
They’re gonna have a harder time in older age compared to the like, you’re gonna pay for it one way or another later in life, or now I think of the two. I think even though it’s painful, choose it now. but that’s why it’s not natural. I think, everything is developmental. Learning how to love well is developmental and we just do it day by day, experience by experience, challenge by challenge, and we can trust God in all of our challenges.
I believe God none, none of this surprises him. It’s all by divine design and I. I’m just grateful that at least I, my view of God is he’s a God who is absolutely eager to bless and the request to ask God in one form or another is like the most repeated command in the Bible, like God wants us to ask.
He, he’s asking us to involve him in our life and to develop that relationship with him. And I think a good sexual relationship in many ways symbolizes in a way a good relationship with God too, in that it requires a great deal of humility. A great deal of trust, a great deal of patience, and all those are all calculated to build our faith and our hope and our charity towards each other.
So, enjoy it. Enjoy sex. Enjoy this great, experience that’s ahead of you. And build a sex life. You both wanna have and do the work it [00:50:00] takes, duke it out between you, if that’s what it takes to get on the same page. And you might need help. Get professional help. Find an excellent marriage coach that’s invested in your happiness.
or a trusted friend who’s gonna speak wisdom into you or find a great program. If your church offers one. Take every resource you can ’cause this can literally be. A, an enormous amount of joy and happiness in your relationship. One last thought on this is we like to look for returns on our investment, right?
Like in the stock market, for example. What will get me this return, on? I think nothing gives me the greatest return on happiness investment. Then the effort I put into my marriage and into my family. nothing, no pay raise, no worldly acclaim can even come close to the joy that I have in my relationship with my wife and with my children.
so invest in it is so worth it. So don’t be surprised if it takes a little bit of effort or if it’s not, comes naturally that these things are things we learn and grow. And
Janice: this is so. Beautiful and also so concretely helpful. Very, very grateful for all of your insight and wisdom and your time, Dan.
Dan: Great. Thank you. What great questions do you have? I hope those in your parish benefit a lot from this, uh, the name of your program, .
Janice: Pre Canaan. It’s called Preclean.
Yeah.
Dan: Which is great. ’cause Canaan is the location where Jesus turned the water into wine. Isn’t this fitting, it’s, it was a wedding feast, right?
Janice: Exactly. Yeah. That’s why I, and this,
Dan: this is his first publicly recorded miracle in the New Testament, and this ability to transform change something from one thing to another.
I think God delights in changing people and changing our own hearts. Sex changes us, I think. I hope. Every time you have sex with your spouse, you walk away. A little bit changed. You’re a little bit better, you’re a little bit closer to each other, that you’re a little bit transformed, just a little bit more every single time.
I hope that’s your experiences in your sexual experiences.
Janice: I’m so grateful for this positive note and then linking it to the spirituality too. ’cause I don’t think that’s our strong suit. so I’m really glad to be able to offer people that also
Dan: Great. Thank you.
Dan Purcell: Thank you for listening to this episode, please share it along with our apps and timidly us. And just between us with their married friends. I promise they will thank you for life. If you want a more meaningful sexual and intimate connection in your marriage, I invite you to check out my, get your marriage on program.
Over a hundred couples have said this program packs tremendous value and has helped their intimacy grow to the next level. Now go get your marriage on.
